David Loder

[Onlyforfun]

Reported in The Telegraph this morning that he's handing in his license at the end of the flat season due to ill-health.

There goes a nice source of bankers.

[vegyjones]

Didn't he retire a couple of years back only to return??

[icebreaker]

He was "retired" by Godolphin a couple of years back when they declined to send him any more of their 2-y-olds!
He never was a decent trainer in my opinion. Quite a poor one, in fact ....... which is borne out by his record since he was deprived of the class horses that Godolphin had with him.
The one regret that I have about his retirement is that we are now deprived of the great opportunities that existed for LAYING his over-bet nags at rediculously short prices.

BTW, word has it that the "health issues" were self-inflicted. :rolleyes:

[susanwells]

That`s Loder, HRA Cecil and Mrs J Ramsden all retiring at the end of the season .. :hearty

[Win2Win]

Well you'll be pleased to know, I've decided to stay on for another season :D

[icebreaker]

And that promising young trainer David Flood (of Johnny Ebeneezer and Im Spartacus fame) who also retired today after a serious disagreement with one of his owners.

The David Flood "retirement" seems to have been a particularly nasty incident according to the Racing Post. Three police cars at the stable in Lambourn and various people running around with bits of paper and writs.

[susanwells]

Well you'll be pleased to know, I've decided to stay on for another season :D


No, no, we voted and you lost, kEITH.. Vegy`s in charge now :yikes:

[vegyjones]

No, no, we voted and you lost, kEITH.. Vegy`s in charge now :yikes:
WOOHOO!!!! :D

Right, All hands on Dick....

Err, I mean deck, yes, all hands on deck... that's what i meant! :D

[Win2Win]

Taxi!!!!!

[bigcumba]

all hands on deck

Won't Ant feel a bit left out? Ooo

[vegyjones]

Won't Ant feel a bit left out? Ooo
No, he doesn't like Germans!!

[susanwells]

Won't Ant feel a bit left out? Ooo
er ????????????

[sparkyminer]

Come on Susan. You should have yer finger on the pulse, etc, yada yada. :rolleyes: :)

[vegyjones]

Hmm, syaying that,

your the nearest thing we have to a "celebrity" here Susan,

How do you fancy 2 weeks in Australia, all expenses paid?? :D

[Onlyforfun]

He never was a decent trainer in my opinion. Quite a poor one, in fact .......

For the record, in the last 5 seasons he has had 202 winners from 903 runners, a strike rate of 22%, amassing nearly £2.7 million in prize money, winning 14 Group races from 79 runners (17%)

Shocking :ermmm

[Win2Win]

Looks like Daryl Hollands stats :doh :laugh

[susanwells]

For the record, in the last 5 seasons he has had 202 winners from 903 runners, a strike rate of 22%, amassing nearly £2.7 million in prize money, winning 14 Group races from 79 runners (17%)

Shocking :ermmm

Glad someone said that.. I don`t have to stats but I have always rated him and his forays into the all weather have made me a nice few shillings :hearty

[Onlyforfun]

In the last 5 seasons D "Dazzler" Holland has had 2083 rides, being boxed in in 1534 (sr 74%), missed the break in 386 (sr 19%), mistimed his run in 101 (sr 5%), misjudged the pace in 61 (sr 3%) and won 1 (sr 0.05%) by accident.

(by the way Ice - this is a joke :laugh)

[tophatter]

In the last 5 seasons D "Dazzler" Holland has had 2083 rides, being boxed in in 1534 (sr 74%), missed the break in 386 (sr 19%), mistimed his run in 101 (sr 5%), misjudged the pace in 61 (sr 3%) and won 1 (sr 0.05%) by accident.

(by the way Ice - this is a joke :laugh)


:laugh :laugh :laugh

[Win2Win]

R Hills is similar apart from, boxed in during 74, 3 runner races (100% SR)

[Workshy]

I think R Hills is a good jock Ooo

[Merlin]

I think R Hills is a good jock Ooo

He is - ON front runners :laugh:laugh:laugh

[bigcumba]

er ????????????

Deck.... Ant..... Ant and Deck... play on words Susan :)

[icebreaker]

For the record, in the last 5 seasons he has had 202 winners from 903 runners,

OFF, when you quoted me you conveniently choose to omit the qualifying phrase that I used: "which is borne out by his record since he was deprived of the class horses that Godolphin had with him". You refer to the last five years in the earlier period of which he had the Godolphin horses. Now here is the figure for his last full year of training (2004) ...... 11% strike rate. That paints a different picture. Without Godolphin and it's backup Loder is made to seem like a very ordinary trainer indeed.

His five year record of amassing a total of 2.7 million in prizemoney looks impressive until you consider the likes of Sir Michael Stoute who will win more than half of that in a single season without the patronage of Coolmore or Godolphin. And you might be interested to know that Loder's five year SR record actually produced a LOSS of £156 to £1 level stakes.

Whatever anyone on here believes, it is a fact that David Loder horses on the sand were a standing dish for exchange layers. They were layed at too-short prices to the lemmings and backed back in-running at 20's and upwards fancy prices.

Regards,
Icebreaker.

[Win2Win]

In 2004 his stable had the virus so that can be ignored, unless of course Jonjo O'Neil is a crap trainer with a less than 10% SR last season :)

[Onlyforfun]

Ice, Ice, baby!


With a 22% strike rate you can pick and choose enough to back to make a profit. A big LSP loss means nothing to the trainer, he gets paid to train and win races.

If you want to argue stats I suggest you look at them first. The majority of the LSP loss was in 2004 when as has been pointed out, his yard had a virus. I only wish he would continue to train into next year to see the blind layers get hit by the correction.

Anyway, in my experience, if a horse is at too short a price in the bookies these days, the exchanges will soon sort that out.

[icebreaker]

The "virus" red-herring is often just a excuse offered by a trainer to deflect attention from his own mediocrity and his horses failure to win.

If Loder's stable had the virus in 2004 could either of you please explain to me why in 2004 he sent out more runners than in any other year during the past five?
Here are the indisputable figures:
2001 .............. 106
2002 ............. 61
2003 ............. 191
2004 ...............296
Not the runner ratio one would expect from a stable crippled by the virus.
Jonjo shut down his stable entirely for six months due to the virus.

[icebreaker]

With a 22% strike rate you can pick and choose enough to back to make a profit.


OFF, with respect the 22% figure is irrelevant because as stated previously that includes a period when Loder was retained by Sheik Mohammed and had access to horses like the great Dubai Millenium. What IS a measure of his talent is how he performed subsequently without the backing of Godolphin and, alas, he fell seriously short in that regard.

In 2001 a 40% SR during his Godolphin employ -- in 2004 11% without Godolphin.

[Workshy]

The "virus" red-herring is often just a excuse offered by a trainer to deflect attention from his own mediocrity and his horses failure to win.



Clutching at straws.....again :dunker :animal-sm

[vegyjones]

David Loder has a 60% strike rate with 2 year olds in 2005!

:D

[Win2Win]

The "virus" red-herring is often just a excuse offered by a trainer to deflect attention from his own mediocrity and his horses failure to win.So Jonjo was just running his Grade 1 horses as non-triers then last season :mover

[Onlyforfun]

The "virus" red-herring is often just a excuse offered by a trainer to deflect attention from his own mediocrity and his horses failure to win.


You a vet?


OFF, with respect the 22% figure is irrelevant because as stated previously that includes a period when Loder was retained by Sheik Mohammed and had access to horses like the great Dubai Millenium.

So the Sheik gives his favourite horse of all time to any old Tom, David or Harry to train?

:hamm :cuck :helper

[icebreaker]

So Jonjo was just running his Grade 1 horses as non-triers then last season :moverI'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

In 2003 Jonjo sent out 632 runners, in 2004 521 runners. The virus began to bite at Jackdaws Castle towards the end of 2004. Since the beginning of 2005 O'Neill has had only 108 runners ......... and this includes the busy NH periods of Cheltenham, Aintree, Sandown etc. That is the effect a true virus infection in a stable will have. In April Jonjo declared the virus infection over and he began sending out runners again.

As yet, my question as to why if Loder stable had the virus in 2004, why did he send out more runners in that year than in any other year of his training career remains unanswered.

Incidentally, Jonjo's NH strike rate in 2004 was 18% ......... not 10%.

regards,
I.

[icebreaker]

So the Sheik gives his favourite horse of all time to any old Tom, David or Harry to train?

:hamm :cuck :helper

So it would seem. But the Sheikh realised his mistake, took back his horses(including Dubai Millenium) and fired Loder.

[icebreaker]

David Loder has a 60% strike rate with 2 year olds in 2005!

:D

Mate, he could have a 100% strike-rate training border collies for Sheedog Trials for all it matters. It is his overall 11% strike-rate in his final full year that is at issue.

[vegyjones]

I thought Loder was most renowned for his skills with his 2 year olds...

in which case that stat is still a valid argument! :wink

[Onlyforfun]

David Loder Strike Rates:

1992 18.2%
1993 23.3%
1994 26.4%
1995 31.0%
1996 21.6%
1997 17.7%
1998 39.6%
1999 25.0%

Suppose these were a fluke?

[vegyjones]

"He's an exceptional trainer"

and if Frankie says so... :D

http://www.flatstats.co.uk/articles/turf/dr_loder_turf.html

[icebreaker]

And Johnnie Murtagh is alleged to have said to him(Loder) before the pair split last season: "you're supposed to be training these horses, not killing them"
A clue there perhaps as to why Sheikh Mohammed had enough of Loder and fired him.

[vegyjones]

alleged -

I deem that evidence inadmissable! :laugh

[Onlyforfun]

Well said Vegster.

The defence rests on the FACTS as follows:

Mr David R Loder has had an exceptional strike rate throughout a 13 year training career. Even in his leanest year when suffering from ill health and the removal of many of his best horses (who after a year with bin Suroor are no longer quite so adept at winning) he maintained a strike rate over 10% which most trainers would give their right arm for!

[Win2Win]

Actually Ice, it was a change of the Sheikhs's policy on 2yo training, he wanted them in house with Suroor. If it was only a 'Loder' problem, he would have just put the 2yo's with someone else, and you won't find a fairer man in racing than the Sheikh.

OFF - You must have the wrong stats, they are the one's of a very good trainer, can you double check :D

[Win2Win]

Last 5 seasons total for M Johnson
2yo 181 975 (19%)
3yo 263 1564 (17%)
4yo+ 104 773 (13%)

He must be crap as well :mover

[Onlyforfun]

Only a fool would back one of Sir Marks 3yos with a mere 105 winners from 353 runners (30%). :wiggle:

[Workshy]

Why arnt you posting their LSP's??? You know they're low and that makes them a bad trainer:rolleyes: http://www.win2winracing.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[icebreaker]

There's no debating with you guys. Yiz are a coven -- a cozy golden circle of mates who stick up for each other, irrespective of the irrefutable facts placed in front of you. :headbange
Woe to anyone that differs with one of you ........... he is then collared on all sides by the remainder of the clan. Bit like the Three Musketeers -- one for all and ........ etc etc.
Can't win. :(

:wink

[Onlyforfun]

This pupil has hit rock bottom...and started to dig! :laugh

[Win2Win]

That's because we're quoting the hard facts in front of us. Stats don't lie.

In 2003/04 I had a Loder system that made 46pts profit, only Stoute & Johnston beat him in those years. All other trainers, no where near.

[bigcumba]

Yiz are a coven

hubble bubble toil and trouble.... :D

here's a pic of Keith to prove you got something right!

If you feel a stabbing pain anywhere later tonight.... it's just Vegy playing with his 'doll' :yikes:

[Win2Win]

Do you think I've been a bit heavy with the eye shadow?

[Merlin]

Theres no doubt that Loder had some talent with 2 year olds (but so did Michael Jackson).....:laugh

He must also know a thing or two about horses having apprenticed with two of the greatest and shrewdest...ie.....Wragg and Prescott......But in saying that, he is in my opinion overated..........

He apparently (maybe the Sheiks fault too) forgot that the horse was supposed to remain in training at 3 and 4 , even 5.......... by the time he finished with the two year olds they were knackered.......:yikes:

[sparkyminer]

There's no debating with you guys. Yiz are a coven -- a cozy golden circle of mates who stick up for each other, irrespective of the irrefutable facts placed in front of you. :headbange
Woe to anyone that differs with one of you ........... he is then collared on all sides by the remainder of the clan. Bit like the Three Musketeers -- one for all and ........ etc etc.
Can't win. :(

:wink
Are you f :censored: king bonkers mad or what? ;fire

[tophatter]

If you think we all agree with other on everything Icebreaker how comes you brought up the fact that people neg rep each other and commented saying maybe peace will break out on the forum one day? Now you are saying we all agree with each other to the detriment of debate :doh People do debate and argue but the fact is that some peoples arguments are maybe less popular than others, mainly because they are genuinley believed to be wrong by the majority. I can't post agreeing with you or say someone like Tipp if I think you are barking up the wrong tree just to be seen to be fair. Do what I do in the political threads when im often in the minority and stand your corner - dont whinge because you can not find many people who actually agrees with you :)

[Win2Win]

Or it could be that the minority is wrong & the the majority are correct :)

[icebreaker]

Are you f :censored: king bonkers mad or what? ;fire

Sparky, I don't know if you understand the concept of a wind-up. If you do, it's clear you don't recognise one when you see one. The discussion had come to an end and my comments you refer to were intented to be a friendly, jocose closing remark. Jaysus, how I hate having to explain myself like this.

And it seems that using more smilies in my posts (as I have been advised to do) did not have the desired effect in this instance. There was a smilie at the end of the post -- a winking one!

[Win2Win]

And it seems that using more smilies in my posts (as I have been advised to do) did not have the desired effect in this instanceThat's because your intial appearance of a lack of humour still sticks until it drfits off into the space time continuum :doh...and that makes complete sense on my medication :D

[vegyjones]

:doh...and that makes complete sense on my medication :D
Alternative theerapy is it Keith Ooo

Hair of the Dog... literally :yikes:

[Win2Win]

...the witch doctor knows what he's doing when it comes to shoving Earl Grey up my :butthead: doesn't he? Ooo

[Workshy]

Sparky, I don't know if you understand the concept of a wind-up. If you do, it's clear you don't recognise one when you see one. The discussion had come to an end and my comments you refer to were intented to be a friendly, jocose closing remark. Jaysus, how I hate having to explain myself like this.

And it seems that using more smilies in my posts (as I have been advised to do) did not have the desired effect in this instance. There was a smilie at the end of the post -- a winking one!

So much less time consuming if you just admitted you're wrong, you struggle dont ya :D :)

[sparkyminer]

Sparky, I don't know if you understand the concept of a wind-up. If you do, it's clear you don't recognise one when you see one.
I think my interpretation of posts on here, stands up to any examination. :)