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View Full Version : Merlins Waffle Number 1 on Laying...



Merlin
2nd November 2005, 06:45
Excuse this waffle of mine, this isn’t definitive waffle, and can be taken with a pinch of salt really, but for anyone new to betting and particularly laying (including myself) some of it maybe useful…………PLEASE NOTE these thoughts are merely observations and are not backed up by research
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An Approach to laying

It seems rather odd, but most people when laying think that they have become poacher turned gamekeeper. This fallacious position is compounded by the camaraderie on betting exchanges between layers and punters. It is this us versus them mentality (punter versus bookmaker) which I will call fallacy number 1, that has to be eliminated.

The first thing to do in order to have at least a fighting chance of laying success is to exorcise this demon. This is a damn sight easier for new players to grasp, because in the old days there was the physical presence of bookie or betting shop and punter. A cyber spirit has replaced the physical presence.

Lets clarify the perception of a bookmaker, further; let’s attempt a definition.

BOOKMAKER

A physical entity that enters into a promise to pay agreement with another physical entity regarding the correct prediction of a future event.

Lets clarify the perception of a punter, and attempt another definition.

PUNTER

A physical entity that enters into a promise to pay agreement with another physical entity regarding the correct prediction of a future event.

It is clear that bookmaker and punter are not two at all, but one. They are not even inseparable, because this would imply two. If you accept this, you must also accept that the betting exchange is the following.

BETTING EXCHANGE

A cyber spirit which acts as guardian to the physical entities who enter into a promise to pay agreement regarding the correct prediction of a future event.

If you follow my drift, you will never, ever again refer to yourself as either a bookie or a punter – this is the starting point.

Of course, the above notes refer to the desired mentality of the layer. It is Unfortunate that we have no choice but to revert to words as our main descriptive tool, sometimes words are so inadequate in conveying concepts and thoughts – but it is our lot, and we are stuck with it.

One of the most obvious, but nevertheless incredibly important things about laying is that almost all of the time you will be in effect betting odds-on. Further, it follows that most of the time the layer is the favorite to collect.

In order to get my point across here, I ask you to consider the times that you have bet horses to win. The average punter wouldn’t bet a horse to win at odds-on, and there are many reasons for this , some of which are, no value, not a working mans price, its a contradiction to wager more than you can win.

All of the above are invalid arguments – take my word for it…

If you do bet at odds-on you will be wanting more things in your favour. In actual fact its imperative, you must have a higher success rate, or you will lose money – and ultimately fail.

That’s enough waffle for now, next post will follow on from this, and cover trying to maximize your chance of laying success by ensuring that your odds-on bet is value, is a working mans price and that’s its not a contradiction to receive less winnings than your wager/stake.

tophatter
2nd November 2005, 20:13
Yep laying is in effect odds on betting.

Many punters wont win money backing odds on - Not because it impossible to win from odds on betting but because they do not have the necessary patience.

So I agree with merlin, a layer and a backer is absolutley no different. Same rules have to apply - strike rate has to be better than your average winning price else you will not make money. So if a "backers" average winning price is 7/1, he needs a strike rate of around 12% to make money. if a layers average winning bet is on horses 7/1 that means he has in effect an average winning price of 1/7 and needs a strike rate of around 88% to make money. There is absolutley no difference - a bet is a bet the exchange is just there to allow you to strike it. It is the staking and whether you can sustain the required strike rate that will see you win or fail and there is absolutley no difference between the types of bet.

Now the hard part about strike rates is they are long term. So if you have a 12% strike rate, im guessing you may have 3 winners in 7 bets sometimes but then that means you may go 40 bets without a winner. With the laying you can be looking at 88% strike rate having 3 losing bets in a row that means you need 21 winning bets just to get even again. But if at the end of the year your strike rate has held up it is your staking and determination that will determine how much you make.

Merlin
2nd November 2005, 20:56
u waffling like me TH......

I just thought I would start wafling....coz there is not enough wafle about laying on the forum....plenty bout betting...but not laying...............glad u joined in...lol

bigcumba
2nd November 2005, 21:34
Good posts by both of you, but all this waffle is making me hungry....

wb
2nd November 2005, 22:44
good point merlin, when you say that laying is like backing odds on.

Never thought about it like that :yikes:

Win2Win
2nd November 2005, 23:51
It is mathematically the same to make money from backing horses as it is to laying them.

It's easy to find a loser, it is difficult to profit from them.

icebreaker
2nd November 2005, 23:54
I would suggest that a crucial difference between laying and backing is that you are getting value when backing but NOT when laying!

The prices on exchanges average out 20% higher than bookmaker SP. So if you are laying, you must be prepared to lay at an inflated price viz-a-vis the true SP.

tophatter
3rd November 2005, 00:07
That is true Ice although the lower the price the nearer to SP you will get it.But is SP the real price the horse should be? With the lower priced horses maybe, but as they get bigger the price is well below what it should be. I dont reckon you get anywhere near value when backing to SP - thats how those bookie boys make their dough.

Any profit when gambling should be coveted - its hard to make money backing longer horses because they are well underpriced by the bookie. The exchanges help with that problem. Making money laying is also difficult because you do not have the advantage the bookie has of laying every horse.

Its just the way it is. You CAN make money gambling but you have to work harder than the bookie.

Win2Win
3rd November 2005, 09:27
The higher the price of the Fav, the more incorrect the market is.