Bad End to a Bad Night

[John]

> roonmoon10 posted small blind (300)
> WAZN posted big blind (600)
> Game # 848,029,172 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards(8c 8d )
> MICKEAN8138 folded
> madkenny folded
> BigAlanW folded
> martell84 folded
> ozzies folded
> rocha7 raised for 1,200
> mikkiduck called for 1,200
> roonmoon10 folded
> WAZN folded
> Dealing the Flop(8s 5s 4d )
> rocha7 checked (checked knowing he'd bet, so I could raise him :))
> mikkiduck bet for 3,300
> rocha7 raised for 6,600
> mikkiduck went all-in for 6,008.39
> rocha7 called for 2,708.39
> Dealing the turn(10h )
> Dealing the river(9s )
> mikkiduck wins 21,916.78 with a Flush, Spades

[mathare]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd have bet out on that flop.

Sure, you have top set but that's not certain to be the nuts as there is a potential straight out there. Now I'm not saying you should assume he has that straight, no point looking for monsters that may not be there. But there is also a flush draw on so you need to protect your hand a bit here I'd say.

You've checked, your opponent has bet the pot and you've raised. Not enough. Put him to a proper decision and put him all-in there and then. You're going to run into the straight from time to time. Tough. You're going to get outdrawn by someone on a flush draw sometimes. Tough. You have top set and checked with the intention of check-raising. But you really don't want to see the turn as any 3, 6, 7, 9 and spade connects with that board. If you put your opponent on any sort of draw he has two cards that connect with part of that board for a straight or flush draw. There are three each of the 3, 6, 7 and 9 that are not spades and a further 11 spades you haven't seen. Give your opponent credit for two of those cards and that leaves 21 cards that could weaken your hand on the turn. See what I mean about not wanting to see it? Check-raise all-in if you have to check-raise. If he is drawing and needs to hit or he's out then he may not be so quick to call. As it is he has put the pressure back on you with a re-raise. OK, it's an easy call as you're pot committed but you still had to make a decision.

Twice in this hand you have flat raised and this is rarely a great idea. You're 8-handed before the flop and with a pair of 8s in the cutoff you can open-raise 3xBB easily. What if the BB had called the extra bet and been in there with something like K2o? He'd fold that if the raise were more substantial so you're facing fewer overcards. Hands like 88 need to spike a set to be confident of winning as there are plenty of overcards that people will play cheaply with poor kickers trying to spike top pair.

More aggression John.

[counterfeit]

There is no way I would have checked that flop. Your opponent had as much chance as you of winning if all the community cards are dealt. Get him off the pot straight away and be happy with the 2,100 profit you make.

Here's a tip I learnt from a local lad who has a WSOP bracelet (Laurence Gosney). It is the best piece of advice in poker I have ever received.

The easiest way to accumulate chips (or money) is to never have to show your cards.

In the hand you described there is no need for you to have ever shown your cards. Your pre flop raise was too small and your actions post flop were not strong enough to get him out of the pot.

I'm not saying that you won't win in that situation - your opponent needed to hit and often they won't but by my reckoning he had a 50% chance of hitting so you need to be aware that you will lose as often as you win.

You need to stack the odds in your favour - you did the exact opposite.

Finally, I would advise that anybody who flops a set should always bet. Why? Well, mainly because it is extremely difficult to put you on a pocket pair that has hit the flop. Your bet on the flop then looks like you are trying to steal it, which makes people who have a bit of the flop think about raising or calling but if they only have a draw then they will also consider folding. If you check then all you are doing is giving a drawing hand a chance to catch up. Put the decision to them and put it big.

As someone who has played poker for a living for 6 years I hate having to get to the river and show my cards. If you watch poker on telly you see it all the time but what they don't show is the 85% of hands where the only cards seen are on the flop.

I played a live torunament last week and at the final table we went over an hour without seeing anybody's cards, 45 minutes of which we didn't even see a flop. Dull, I know, but tournament poker is like that.

Just one last piece of advice. You stated that you knew he would bet if you checked. Great but ...

sometimes you need to play your cards and the board and not your opponent. Just because your opponent is aggressive doesn't mean he/she is bluffing all the time.

[mathare]

Good post there - a lot of good points made.

[counterfeit]

thanks - I don't normally comment on people playing poker but the reason I win is because I have learnt from advice so why not pass it on sometimes.

One other thing from John's post. What did the other player have? If he had AK spades or Ace anything he was never passing that flop but if he had 9J spades then he would probably have folded to the all in as he couldnt be sure he had the best draw. Once he was pot committed by making the first bet he had to go all the way - effectively it was a 5,000 bet to win 21,000 and he had already put in 4,500. No brainer.

[John]

Thanks for your advice chaps. Very helpful.

The other guy was holding ATs and took a chance on hitting the flush draw with that hand, which is a fairly strong hand in such a situation as the one above. I think he would have called a 3xblinds raise or even a 5xblinds raise but I'd had a bad night so far, and so my mentality got the better of me... I didn't feel comfortable raising to such an amount.

Normally I would have betted that flop. In hindsight, I should have. But I was trying to be clever and check/raise him when in reality I was giving the other guy more and more opportunities to win the pot.

Aggression is always my downfall... I'm either overly aggressive or not aggressive enough. Thanks again for the advice though, it'll come in very useful.

[John]

I'm gonna have a break for a while. Nothing is going right, and tonight just finished me off. I was short stacked from earlier after losing with TT to some trashy hand like 86 or something, so it was all-in/fold and what you see below is just one example of about 6 or 7 bad beats since Friday. I've folded some smashing hands tonight too, such as JJ when I correctly predicted the other guy had flopped a set. AK lost on three occasions since Sunday (once Sunday night and twice tonight).

In addition, nearly every pocket pair I'm dealt hasn't done me any favours. Normally I'll fold anything less than 77 or 88 if raised pre-flop, but will raise pocket pairs such as 77 or better pre-flop if nobody has been yet to raise. Anyway, you get the picture. Time out from poker will no doubt do me good. On to the nitty gritty:

> mr_chris258 posted small blind (400)
> samjmy282 posted big blind (800)
> Dealing Hole Cards(Kc Qs )
> malarky folded
> halemaster folded
> maxpower-1 folded
> bbbbb9, you have 10 seconds to respond
> bbbbb9 folded
> DOUGSYKES went all-in for 5,146.58
> Ente folded
> rocha7 went all-in for 1,325.80
> mr_chris258 folded
> samjmy282 folded
> Extra chips returned to DOUGSYKES, 3,820.78
> Dealing the Flop(2h 9h Ks )
> Dealing the turn(Jh )
> Dealing the river(Qc )
> DOUGSYKES wins 3,851.60 with a Flush, Hearts
> rocha7 has left the tournament in 142nd place

[mathare]

Your stack had got too low for you to be any sort of a force here, that's your main problem.

[John]

Well yes, it was a last throw of the dice. Just a shame it had to end the way it did.