How not to play QQ

[mathare]

** Hand # 1012684767 starting - 2008-07-07 22:07:50
** $5 Turbo 10 pays 5 equal payout - 5 hand levels [Hold em] (300.00|600.00 NL - STT) Real Money
- mathare sitting in seat 2 with 2585.00
- Baws69 sitting in seat 3 with 1915.00
- waitson sitting in seat 6 with 2395.00
- salasana sitting in seat 7 with 1190.00
- RIFFRAFF_MCC sitting in seat 8 with 1110.00
- McWildcard sitting in seat 9 with 4510.00
- dawson76 sitting in seat 10 with 845.00 [Dealer]
mathare posted the small blind - 150.00
Baws69 posted the big blind - 300.00
** Dealing cards to mathare: Qc, Qs
waitson folded
salasana folded
RIFFRAFF_MCC folded
McWildcard raised to 1800.00
dawson76 folded
mathare went all-in - 2585.00
Baws69 folded
McWildcard called - 2735.00
McWildcard shows: 10h, As
** Dealing the flop: 5s, 4h, 10c
** Dealing the turn: Ad
** Dealing the river: 10d
McWildcard wins 5770.00 from the main pot
End of game 1012684767

I have a decent stack, 2nd chip leader if I recall correctly. We're down to 7 with the top 5 getting paid equally. There's a mid-position raise to 1800 with the blinds at 200/400 and I wake up with QQ and shove. Folded round to the raiser who calls, and why not - I would too in his position unless he was on an absolute bluff steal.

Mistake number 1 (and the only one I needed to make) - why did I shove? I wasn't thinking -situationally here. I saw QQ and shoved into a decent raise knowing he would call. He's not likely to have anything that I have dominated enough to make this a good shove as I have priced him in to the call. I am gambling and with no need when there are short stacks at the table. This was really stupid play and the worst thing is I paused over the button before shoving. I knew what I was doing was stupid but did it anyway.

I survived the flop but the turn did the damage and the river was just a kick in the teeth for lousy play. I should have folded pre-flop but the eyes lit up with QQ

[mathare]

Fortunately I learned from this and came back in the next STT to cash easily. By the time the bubble burst I had half the chips in play - easy :)

That's three wins out of four STTs tonight with this QQ debacle the only black mark on the record.

[John]

He's an idiot for raising to 1800 with ATo in my opinion. But you're right; you shouldn't have shoved; a call would've sufficed.

Still, learning is what poker is about, and another day you'd have both seen a rag flop and he'd be the one short stacked.

[TheOldhamWhisper]

I don't see how it could have made a difference. If you call, you are going to be put all-in after the flop and would have to call. The only way out would be to fold pre-flop but once you start doing that, you might as well stop playing poker altogether.

The main problem lies in the type of game you are playing (i.e. top 5 finish and nothing else matters); whilst it is good to double your stake, it doesn't promote good poker.

[Win2Win]

It all depends on how you play the game overall. If I was playing the stay in at all costs, and let all the other buggers knock each other out, while pinching pots cheaply, I'd just chuck them. I've dumped AA in similar situations in order to just ensure I'm still around longer than the other muppets.

[mathare]

I wouldn't have called in that situation John. As Oldham says I'd have been made to shove all-in on the flop anyway and I'd still be out. It was shove or fold and I chose the wrong one and I knew I had as soon as I clicked the button.

I don't see the game type as a problem though. I enjoy playing them and they are easy money. Do they promote something other than good poker? I don't know, but what I do know is that there are 5 places paid and they all get the same as 3rd gets in a normal 10-seater STT. And the bubble play in these 10 pays 5 games is RUBBISH! Very very few players seem to have any idea of end game strategy. I see plenty of people being almost blinded out, hoping to hang on and have someone else bust out before them so they could make the money.

I see these games as good training grounds for my bubble play and as I said earlier, easy money. I'm not after games that are too brain taxing in the evenings so I play games like this as they are simple to play. And I have a decent ROI on these games. I am using them to build a bit of a bankroll (slowly admittedly, but easily) so I can then venture out in to other areas.

[silax]

hard to say what i would have done proberbly pushed all in pre flop. I don't think i would have laid QQ down. Like Oldam says if you're going to lay those kind of hands down what are you going to play. Its a strange game that you're playing and i guess we all do things different chip leaders are generally looser players so you've got to push they know they aren't going out if they go all in and your stack is one of the ones that might have him foldng. Either way in my opinion you got the bad luck and he got lucky only 2 hands are starting off ahead of you pr-flop if he has one of those he will slow play it. so in hindsight although he hit a full house the only thing you would normally need to avoid in these situations is an Ace in the 5 cards shown he has one so only another 3 in the pack All in call is the correct call IMO

[silax]

Or in this kind of game you decide on a stack size and if you think it is big enough to bring home the bacon fold everything Any starting hand is at best only a pair

[mathare]

Like Oldam says if you're going to lay those kind of hands down what are you going to play. It's like a multi-seat satellite though. You don't need to win the thing, just finish in the money positions so laying down big hands pre-flop when you have a decent stack but could go bust to a bigger stack is all part of the strategy. It doesn't matter whether you get into the money with 1 chip or 90% of the chips in play - each place has the same reward. I could have folded every hand and made the money but instead I played a hand I didn't need to given he had raised

[mathare]

Or in this kind of game you decide on a stack size and if you think it is big enough to bring home the bacon fold everything Any starting hand is at best only a pairExactly. I had a safe enough stack to see me through in that position so I could and should have just check-folded through all the hands