Goodbye Mr Poker, it was a pleasure meeting you

[John]

$3.30 90-seater Sit and Go - top 9 get paid.

After... I don't know... 90 minutes there are 10 of us left. I'm short stacked and this happens:

--------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker Game #8321781811: $3 + $0.30 KO Sit & Go (63307148), Table 5 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:26:49 ET - 2008/10/02
Seat 2: IAMJOHNNY (12,887)
Seat 4: 14Mo (34,198)
Seat 7: itseasymmmkay (34,054)
Seat 8: bulisor (22,710)
Seat 9: hard2quit (1,435), is sitting out
IAMJOHNNY antes 300
14Mo antes 300
itseasymmmkay antes 300
bulisor antes 300
hard2quit antes 300
IAMJOHNNY posts the small blind of 1,200
14Mo posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IAMJOHNNY [Ks Kd]
itseasymmmkay folds
bulisor folds
hard2quit folds
IAMJOHNNY raises to 12,587, and is all in
14Mo calls 10,187
IAMJOHNNY shows [Ks Kd]
14Mo shows [Jh 9h]
*** FLOP *** [5d 9d Jd]
*** TURN *** [5d 9d Jd] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [5d 9d Jd 6h] [7c]
IAMJOHNNY shows a pair of Kings
14Mo shows two pair, Jacks and Nines
14Mo wins the pot (26,674) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
IAMJOHNNY stands up
14Mo stands up
itseasymmmkay stands up
bulisor stands up
hard2quit stands up

--------------------------------

I'm seriously thinking about quitting the game completely. I'm not profitting from it, so what's the point? The guy got INCREDIBLY lucky, and 95/100 times I'd win that pot, obviously on the turn and river I was praying as non-religiously as possible for another Diamond to come out, but that's irrelevant, I just can't believe it, to finish 10th and to lose with Kings to an absolute idiot calling with J9. Utterly, utterly, utterly awful. I'm speechless. Does this kind of thing happen to other people? How do you lot make money from the game with this kind of thing happening? It's not the fact that he called with J9 that annoyed me NEARLY as much as hitting 2 pair on the flop (but even THAT was a stupid thing to do).

[Win2Win]

Change your tactics, that is the point of the game, you can never stop learning. I hope you've read a few books and taken it all in. Failure is never an option for me. I kept working at poker by playing, reading, watching it on TV & DVD's, until I was making consistent profits. We can't succeed in life if we give up when the going gets tough.

Ask for book vouchers for Xmas of your family....:wink

Bas beats never happen to me, they are all part of the statistical norm, you just have to work out how to keep the long term stats in your favour.

[counterfeit]

there's a few points here to be analysed. You might not like this but I am only trying to help.

1. 14MO is already guranteed to get to the final table and has put in 2,400 chips in the BB. He is going to call your all-in about 90% of the time whatever he has and in the case of suited connectors it's more like 95-99%. Only the tightest player in the world would have put his hand down. You have to realise that he has a free shot to get rid of you and start the final table.

2. In the next round of blinds hard2quit is going to have to survive 2 all-ins to get to the final table and as he is in the SB when you are in the BB, you will get a free shot to eliminate him. (before anybody queries this he is sat out so will be all-in in the BB with only his ante in the middle (assuming the blinds haven't gone up) so even if wins the 4 antes he will only have 1200 chips and will have to put in 1500 into John's BB)

3. There is another table. When you get to your position you should have the other table open on your screen watching every move. Did you?

4. You can throw away 2 Kings. I know it's hard but in the position you were in there are so many factors to consider. Obviously, the strength of your hand is one but also you need to look at other people's stacks, what people are likely to call with, what is happening on the other table, how aggressive the person you are betting into is.

I know this is no consolation but Robin Keston once threw away KK on the BB in an EPT event just to guarantee he did not bubble. He went on to finish 2nd or 3rd and won over $200k. It was on tv and he got so much stick but he was right because he had no way of knowing what cards the dealer would turn over.

Basically though, if I had been in your situation I would have folded every time unless I had more chips than the BB. Bubble play is all about bullying smaller stacks and you didn't have that luxury so I would have folded and enjoyed the action on the other table and watched hard2quit struggle with having to survive 2 all ins.

A very important point to remember at all times in poker is that the 2 cards in front of you are only a very small part of the game. There are 5 other cards to come and other players to consider. You cannot become a long term successful or profitable poker player if your whole game is based on the 2 cards you are dealt.

[silax]

a very tough one to fold at the time. I've done it before to get to the bubble i don't think you're too short stacked here. not sure what i would have done proberbly played the hand same as you and been just as annoyed as you.
unlucky to lose it if you'd folded you would have made the cash and the final table. if the BB hadn't got lucky you would have been in a good position chip wise in the final table.
getting to the bubble is the most important thing in the game its best to get poo cards at this time in the game if you're playing tight.

[John]

Okay... okay... maybe I overreacted a little bit last night. Maybe a little. But not all that much. With a fresh head today, that call was still pretty dumb in my eyes and I know you'll probably disagree with me saying this but if it was switched around and some guy shoved 12k's worth of chips in the middle, with J9s I wouldn't call him. Ludicrous you might say, but we all play poker in different ways - and I also don't think that's a particularly tightish move to make - to fold in that position. Seems pretty normal to me in fact, and yes I haven't forgotten to take into account the stack sizes. :)

Counterfeit, you make some very good points each time you reply to my posts and I'd like to thank you for that. Let's look at each of them:

1. I realise he has a free shot to get rid of me - but in all honesty even with that hand, as I previously said I think it was a bit of a daft call. Previously to this, I'd pushed my chips into the middle twice and he'd folded. Maybe part of him thought "I'm not going to let Johnny get away with this any longer" and therefore called. Maybe, with any two cards, he would have called. Maybe if this was his mindset, the cards were his least important factor on the occasion.

2. Yeah, I realised that when I was putting my chips in the middle. I guess I just didn't want my Kings to lose. I thought they were invincible.

3. Yep - had both tables open side by side, and was watching both. I never used to do this, but have done since about January this year.

4. Folding the two Kings is an option, yes I agree. You say you would have folded Kings in my position every time, unless you had the greater number of chips than the BB. Would you have folded Aces? I think I'd fold every single hand except for KK and AA. And I guess hard2quit was really living up to his name.

Interesting point you make about Robin Keston! I just thought my Kings would see me through and like you've mentioned already there are a lot more factors to consider than the hole cards you're dealt.

[John]

Keith,

Thanks for the general as-usual kick up the backside. Harsh but fair. You don't really talk about poker much on here - do you play often? Have you made megabux?! What kind of poker do you play, and do you prefer single or multi-table tournaments?... or cash games?

[John]

Silax,

Yeah, I was hoping for a continuation of crap cards, KK was the best hand I'd had in about 30 and my shoves to the big blinds were getting less and less strong with each round of play. I still don't know if I could fold those two Kings. I was really frustrated with myself for not making the cash, even the lowest amount would have seen me walk away with the measiliest of profit, but at least I'd have reached my lowest goal. Obviously my main goal is to win, and I want that win so badly. If I'm heads up and I lose, I get annoyed because I haven't won. It's all about the winning for me... making the money is only part of it.

[John]

Just played another one of these $3.30 90-runnerers...

Finished 2nd for $43.88. :)

Thought I was going to finish 3rd, but then I managed to take nearly all chips off the guy who did finish 3rd (who was very lucky throughout - I played him on 2 different occasions) who shoved with KK only to run into my AA - very unusual for three-handed. He congratulated me, and said well played, which was a first for Full Tilt I have to say. Most folk are obnoxious idiots!

So then I was heads up. I'm pretty weak in this situation, and the other guy was really good. He whittled me down to about 4 x BB and I shoved with ATs beating his pocket 8's. That put me back up to about 6 BB's. Then, I shoved with AQo to be beaten with QQ. It happens... but what can you do? Think I'm going to have a look at some heads up tips over the weekend.

Now it's three o'clock in the morning and to be honest, although I enjoy my poker it's starting to take up my life and I don't want it to, especially staying up until this time on a Friday night. At the cancellation of a night out it was a good chance to settle down here and play, but I've heard making a living out of poker doesn't go hand in hand with a very attractive lifestyle. In fact it's quite dull apparently, apart from the money. Anyway, brushing that aside, I'm cutting down the amount of hours I spend online playing the game I love and hate. It's not good for me.

Anyway, I'm not really too sure where I'm going with the rest of this post. I'm just really pleased I won - well not won (1st gets $72) - in fact I'm frustrated that he was better than me and I came 2nd. But maybe when I'm as good as he was I can bully someone heads up (and believe me I tried so hard to bully him down) and walk away with a gold medal for Great Britain! Tell you what though it's so much nicer being higher up in the chips on the bubble, being in a position to call all-ins and stack up. KQ suited to AA and I hit a straight... got a shedload of abuse my way... now I know why they do it. :D

[Win2Win]

Keith,

Thanks for the general as-usual kick up the backside. Harsh but fair. You don't really talk about poker much on here - do you play often? Have you made megabux?! What kind of poker do you play, and do you prefer single or multi-table tournaments?... or cash games?

Single tables only, $50 tables on Party Poker, only because I never have time for bigger tournies though. I don't play much in the summer months with all the night racing, only really started again a couple of weeks back....more of a winter sport for me :doh

I make enough to survive if I done bugger all else, but it is more a hobby, as it is much easier making money from the horses, and quicker. :)

I finish in the money 37% of the time, as that is what I aim for, I don't try and win every game I play. I never put myself in a position to go out in 6,7,8th . I only play hands in the early stages when I have position and good odds.

[markwales]

John John John...... his call is totally standard in that situation mate.

You are pushing there with any two cards (yeah you had KK but he wasn't to know that), and his J9h were going to be live cards probably 80-90% of the time.

Perhaps if you don't see this as a standard BB bubble call then you should give the game up.

[counterfeit]

Perhaps if you don't see this as a standard BB bubble call then you should give the game up.

I think John is still learning and therefore he is allowed to not be wholly aware of this sort of stuff, so cut him a bit of slack.

As you can see from his later post, he was bullying when he had a big stack near the bubble so I'm hoping that was as a result of this thread. If it wasn't and it was a natural thing to do then he really shouldn't be complaining when somebody does it to him.

[markwales]

Yeah I was only winding him up :) We talk poker on MSN regularly which you weren't to know about.

[counterfeit]

do you - isn't that collusion:REGamblMo

[John]

A natural thing to do indeed, so I shouldn't really be complaining... I just expected the guy to flip over something a little more solid than J 9!

Cheers Mark anyway, I know you were only messin'. :D

My theory is you should never stop learning. The minute you think you know more than you think you do can be extremely dangerous.

I played about 3 hours of poker this afternoon which was probably about 8 or 9 tourneys (stuck to 6 seater STTs today). Three 1sts and two 2nds, which I'm really happy with. Made about $100 this weekend, if only every weekend could be this good.

[counterfeit]

Made about $100 this weekend, if only every weekend could be this good.

This is slightly unrelated but I made over £100 this weekend laying horses in the place market that had already pulled up or fell.

Sometimes life is so sweet.

I have managed to lose $7 on poker this weekend so you've done better than me John.

[John]

Haha, but your $7 must be nothing at the levels you play at.....?

Well done on that laying - guess you have to be very quick in that situation. I didn't even know it was possible to lay horses after they'd pull up/fallen/UR'd...

Some people are very odd! I pre-flop raise with JJ, I get re-raised massively (all in) so I shove and he turns over 55. I hit a Jack on the flop, icing on the cake and he's out.

[paul183195]

sorry to jump on this thread but i have just started playing poker so i"m at the bottom of the ladder so to speak.i am keeping a record of how i do , at the moment i am playing in $1 + $0.20 sit and go , 6 player tourneys.i dont understand %"s or odds of hands and i have never read any books on it.i do understand that the higher you go the more skillful it becomes.so far i have played 41 tourneys, finished 1st or 2nd ( in the money ) 25 times. should i be thinking of moving up a little or stay put for a while longer. also can anyone recommend any books that will help me.thanks in advance

[counterfeit]

bank management - stay at your current level until your bank has grown accordingly.

For example, if you had a bank of $100 for $1 buy ins then your bank for $5 buy ins should have increased to $500. Do not add your own money to make up the bank.

As for books - there are many and most have their merits. I guess it's an individual preference but for sit and go's I found quite a lot of good stuff on the net.