Pre flop strategy - STT. Ideas?

[crazybadger]

I'm playing more and more STTs (10 seats, 3 pays) and after some reading I'm developing a sort of strategy for how I play within the loose to tight spectrum. I think my default has always been normal or tight but I found that when I played normal/tight I was making last 5-6 players often but never as chip leader and normally had to start making moves or shoving and trying to get lucky.

Hence the shift in my style of play. I've got 3 "styles" - loose, normal, tight, and then for each one I have 3 different groups of starting hands I will play depending on whether I'm early, middle, or late position.

The main area I want ideas on is when you guys think the best times are to play loose, normal, tight in a 10seater tourny. So far my idea is:

Players Left (Style)
10,9 (loose)
8,7 (normal)
6,5 (tight)
4 (normal)
3 (loose/ N/A?)
2.. N/A (I got very loose and aggressive)


My thinking was to play a little loose early on when the blinds are small and possibly hit something unexpected. After that I start tightening up as the players get knocked out. Just before the bubble I play at my tightest only playing the premium hands. Then once bubble arrives go back to "normal" and maybe try to pick up a few blinds or push around the mid-stackers trying to hold on.

Thoughts?

[mathare]

A lot of STT strategy I have read says you should be tight early on and looser later, which seems contrary to the way most players think of it. Like you I thought the cheap levels are a good spot for speculative hands to try and hit a cheap monster but the guides I read said playing like that tends to be a significant leak unless you're really good at it. You drip away chips here there and everywhere and then when you hit a monster you have fewer chips so you double up a smaller stack and with bigger blinds you're not in that good a position after all. By playing tight early on you preserve a big stack and look for a big hand as the blinds rise. If you don't get one you have projected a very tight image so you can steal more, and don't forget you're stealing bigger blinds in terms of numbers of chips and they are a more significant portion of your stack. You then uses these steals to help you loosen up and by now you should be down to 4-5 players anyway and from there it's more down to feel and the players left as you're probably entering the push-fold phase.

I'll dig out some links to some useful STT guides I have read when I get a chance. I have the links at home and am out tonight but I will try to post them tomorrow night/Saturday if I remember

[John]

You drip away chips here there and everywhere and then when you hit a monster you have fewer chips so you double up a smaller stack and with bigger blinds you're not in that good a position after all.I kind of disagree with that Mat - let's assume the blinds are relatively small, say 25/50 and you've around the same number of chips you started with (1500). If you play a speculative hand like TJ or A7 for example and you hit a monster, assuming you can build a pot to say 500 (let's say 3 people in the pot) then this puts you on 2000 chips. This gives you a lot more time later on to wait for a good hand, whereas people with shorter stacks have to act sooner.

I think you can limp into pots early on as a speculative way to see the flop, with the idea that you fold to any raise. I've usually speculatively limped into anywhere between 2 and 5 pots before the blinds start taking effect at say 75/150, and this hasn't cost me a lot of chips. I may have lost chips, but in that time of about maybe 15 minutes, I've managed to score points with at least one premium hand or a medium pair too (usually but not always).

Personally I only limp into pots when the blinds are really small. When they reach about 100/200 and I've got around the same number of chips I started with (1500), I'm at the stage when I never limp into a pot. Fold or raise only by this point, as I'm tightening up as the tournament moves forward. Around the bubble I sometimes play a bit looser but only in certain situations.

Being the short stack at the bubble can really have its advantages if you're dealt a run of decent-to-monster hands in quick succession, so I try and steal as much as possible, with "good" hands only. But, also remembering that my stack has to be big enough to steal with. No point trying to steal with a miniscule stack that players won't be afraid to call. One thing that works well for me is patience. Mid-way through the tournament, I wait for others to make mistakes, and I'm happy to let the blinds partially eat my stack away. After all I'm waiting for a big hand to play. My poker ego tells me I'm the best at the table, and with that belief (which probably isn't true) I have the confidence to wait for the right moment to pounce. Thrown in with a few steals (e.g. when folded around to me in button position) this can be quite an effective way to reach the bubble.

So yeah, I would say:

1. Speculatively limp at the beginning.

2. Be patient in the middle, steal from the button with "good" hands (perhaps folding to a re-raise but don't make this a habit). Be patient and wait for others to make mistakes. Play premium hands aggressively but try and get at least one caller. In certain situations these have to be played slow - I often play premium hands slow when I'm the short stack. This can give the impression to others that "here's a muppet who hasn't got a clue."

3. Attack the bubble in the right situations, wait for others to make a mistake. If you're the short stack and you've gone past the bubble, it can sometimes be easy to get out of... steal frequently from the middle stack's big blind and if you can steal enough blinds then you've got yourself a bit of a cushion.

[mathare]

I kind of disagree with that Mat - let's assume the blinds are relatively small, say 25/50 and you've around the same number of chips you started with (1500). If you play a speculative hand like TJ or A7 for example and you hit a monster, assuming you can build a pot to say 500 (let's say 3 people in the pot) then this puts you on 2000 chips. This gives you a lot more time later on to wait for a good hand, whereas people with shorter stacks have to act sooner.OK. I don't really regard those as small blinds compared to the stacks. You have 30xBB and with the next level this will slip to 15xBB assuming blinds of 50/100 which is pretty standard. I think of small blinds as 10/20 or 15/30 here. You also assume you hit your hand and win the pot. As we're talking about speculative hands you're far more likely to miss. You may have pot odds all the way to the river and miss so it could cost you 200 chips or more to play a speculative hand. Good if you hit, bad if you miss. And you will miss 3-4 times as often as you hit. That's why tight at the start is advised.


I think you can limp into pots early on as a speculative way to see the flop, with the idea that you fold to any raise. I've usually speculatively limped into anywhere between 2 and 5 pots before the blinds start taking effect at say 75/150, and this hasn't cost me a lot of chips. I may have lost chips, but in that time of about maybe 15 minutes, I've managed to score points with at least one premium hand or a medium pair too (usually but not always).So if you limp-fold you lose fewer chips but what if you have the odds to draw at each street? If you don't make your hand your losing chips. Also limp-folding gives you a weak table image making stealing later on much harder.


Personally I only limp into pots when the blinds are really small. When they reach about 100/200 and I've got around the same number of chips I started with (1500), I'm at the stage when I never limp into a pot. Fold or raise only by this point, as I'm tightening up as the tournament moves forward. Around the bubble I sometimes play a bit looser but only in certain situations.I stop limping long before I am down to 7.5xBB as that's pushbot territory. I tried to eliminate limping completely from my game when I played STTs.


Being the short stack at the bubble can really have its advantages if you're dealt a run of decent-to-monster hands in quick successionThat's a pretty big if though. I'd much rather have a dominant chip lead at the bubble.


But, also remembering that my stack has to be big enough to steal with. No point trying to steal with a miniscule stack that players won't be afraid to call. A min-raise can be enough to steal the blinds when they are big in relation to stack sizes but you need a big enough stack to back up the threat. You'll get called if you're stealing with a small stack but having a medium stack will probably work, but there is often no need to put it all at risk. Why not make a min-raise as a steal attempt knowing that you can get away from it if re-raised? Not all the time, but just to mix play up a little. You'll find it works often enough to make it a good play to have in your armoury.


One thing that works well for me is patience. Mid-way through the tournament, I wait for others to make mistakes, and I'm happy to let the blinds partially eat my stack away. After all I'm waiting for a big hand to play. That's the attitude I am suggesting to adopt from the start. If someone gets a lucky double up the chips aren't in the hands of a good player so he'll squander them away later. Be in a position to take as many of them as possible by having as big a stack as possible, and for me that means avoiding the speculative hands at the start.

[counterfeit]

I haven't read the replies yet but my first thought is this.

If you play tight at the beginning then it's quite probable/possible that three or four players have exited before you have lost 150 chips (10% of your stack). This gives you a great stack to play with.

[mathare]

If you play tight at the beginning then it's quite probable/possible that three or four players have exited before you have lost 150 chips (10% of your stack). This gives you a great stack to play with.Yup, good point. You have also cultivated an exploitable table image

[John]

If you miss the flop, fair enough, fold your hand away - that's the whole point of the word 'speculative'. You're not expecting to win the pot, and would only bet/call the turn if you had the opportunity to do so. Plus if it's checked all around then you've seen the turn card for free. I was assuming by means of my example that I'd hit a monster flop.

I've never been much of a fan of draws unless there's a strong chance I'll hit... they're strongly overrated.

I adopt patience from the outset, but that doesn't mean I can't see a single flop on a half-decent hand for 1/30th of my stack. I know I can make that back later.

Regarding table image, well some people take a lot of notice and some people don't. I can bluff pots against the right players in the right situations, and if I'm caught out and have to fold, so be it. For me, table image isn't of the most importance, I know I can play the correct hands 95% of the time and make the right decisions, without giving all that much thought to my image or another player's image at the table. It's more important for live games.

[mathare]

It's more important for live games.I disagree massively here.

With so many trackers out there people are paying attention to who is playing hands and from what position. Even without tracking software you know who is folding virtually every hand and who is seeing most flops. So you know who is loose and who is tight without even needing to pay much attention to the table. If a raise comes from one off the button after it has been folded round to them are they stealing or not? If they are tight they probably have finally found a hand worth playing so you get out their way. if they are loose you think more about playing the hand.

Table image and 'tells' are very different

[counterfeit]

Another point to add to Mat's is that the vast majority of players at John's level will be using trackers and will play mathematically correct poker. The combination means that if you have got a tight image than you can steal loads because a) the tracker will suggest you have a good hand and b) it is not mathematically correct to call a raise from a tight player without a monster.

[MattR]

i've certainly found with the 6 seat D2N STT's that patience at the start is usually rewarded with 2 all in merchants crashing out fairly early. So I have been playing cautiously early on playing mainly only on very good hands or semi good bb and sb's. This usually sees me through to the bubble anywhere from a low point of around 700 chips if had absolute cack hands with nothing to play or somwehere above there (starting chips is 1000). This seems to leave me in a fairly handy position to have a good shout at getting through the bubble.

An example from a game I played this morning where I had absolutely nothing to play in the first 20 hands other than a small bb win. This left me on 725 chips when the first two went out. The guy sitting to my right constantly was going all in when he was on the sb and me on the bb when nobody before him had bet. I knew he was just stealing chips but never had a hand to challenge him with so just folded thinking my time will come. Sure enough it did a few hands later when I had QQ and he went all in once again. This time I called him and he had 37. The flop gave me another Q and that was that.

[crazybadger]

Wow good replies. Lots of interesting stuff there. A couple of points:

I said earlier that if i play tight early I seem to make final 5-6 but rarely with big stack. Thinking back over my games I think I am still "weak" in that I can be pushed off hands I probably shouldn't be but the raises scare me off. I dont really know how to fix that apart from playing more and getting to see how often some of the "simpler" hands win a pot.
So this led to my thinking that I needed to get an advantage earlier and build a stack so these marginal calls have something to backed up with instead of just a partially depleted stack.

Also, some of you are talking about giving the tight image to players (and or tracking software) and thus being able to steal. But wouldn't it work the other way too? If I am deemed to be loose but have since tightened up then won't they be more likely to call a monster hand that I hit later on?

[crazybadger]

I guess the main thing I need to have is the flexibility in my play and the ability to read the situation and change. E.g. I just played another STT and I quickly became massively short-stacked (120 from start of 1500) with 10 players still left. The blinds had just gone past me so I changed from loose to tight as I wasn't going to be limping in anymore and I had to wait for something to double up with.

I ended up making back up to around 750 in chips before busting out in 6th.

[counterfeit]

Bascially, there is no right or wrong strategy just what works for each individual. I always like to watch the idiots leave before I get active. You can guarantee there are at least 2 really bad players at any table below $15 buy in.

Thinking about something you said about being too weak. Instead of being pushed off hands try the following things in two separate tourneys. You might lose but it's worth trying.

1. Try re-raising (not calling) the first raise into you. It doesn't matter what your cards are in this situation. If your opponent folds then SHOW your cards. This has two benefits here. It proves you are a) a bluffer and b) not afraid and won't be pushed around. Immediately tighten up and next time you are in a pot only play a proper hand.

2. Get the first raise or bet in. You might be plying against somebody like yourself who is "weak" to a raise. Bet all the way to the river. You might lose but to be honest in the vast majority of cases you will win because if your opponent has a monster they will be all in well before the river.

I'm not saying that you will definitely win but if you do then your confidence will take such a massive boost you will wonder why you haven't always played this way. If you lose then at least you have gone into the tourney not expecting anything as it's an experiment.

[mathare]

Also, some of you are talking about giving the tight image to players (and or tracking software) and thus being able to steal. But wouldn't it work the other way too? If I am deemed to be loose but have since tightened up then won't they be more likely to call a monster hand that I hit later on?No-one will notice a loose player tightening up. They will have you tagged as a loose player who is completely card dead so the minute you come back out with a steal their loose alarm goes off and they call you down light. You can't steal if you've been tagged loose. Yes, you'll get more action on a monster but in an STT you're going to need to steal a lot more often then you get a monster

[mathare]

Give us an example of your 'weak' play crazybadger and we'll comment if you like. You may be folding too much after a raise or seeing monsters that aren't really there. You may think that when someone raises the only option is to call or fold and your hand is too weak to call. What about the re-raise? Show the guy you mean business. But at the same time don't risk it all unnecessarily with trash. Poker is a tricky balance at times

[crazybadger]

I've only got 1 example from my last tourny that comes off the top of my head. It went something like this:

I limped in with J9s. Think we had 4 players.
I flopped an open ended straight draw (8 10 A rainbow). Cant remember the action at the flop but not much (if any) and still 4 players.
Turn comes a Q give me the Q high straight. I raise (roughly 1/2 the pot I think). Next guy re-raises and then next guy re-raises that.

I fold my Q high straight thinking someone came in with KJ and hit the Ace high straight. They go on to showdown an the initial re-raiser had Ace rag I think and the 2nd re-raiser wins the pot with a Queen high straight (he played J9 too).

It ended up being a big pot too but I folded as it was early and I thought I was beaten. Looking back I think it still might have been best to fold to 2 re-raisers because it was early days but it felt weak at the time.


Other basic examples of stuff I fold is like a top pair with a mid kicker (and then see I would have won). I think I also get too scared of flushes and flush draws...

[mathare]

I've only got 1 example from my last tourny that comes off the top of my head. It went something like this:

I limped in with J9s. Think we had 4 players.
I flopped an open ended straight draw (8 10 A rainbow). Cant remember the action at the flop but not much (if any) and still 4 players.
Turn comes a Q give me the Q high straight. I raise (roughly 1/2 the pot I think). Next guy re-raises and then next guy re-raises that.

I fold my Q high straight thinking someone came in with KJ and hit the Ace high straight. They go on to showdown an the initial re-raiser had Ace rag I think and the 2nd re-raiser wins the pot with a Queen high straight (he played J9 too).

It ended up being a big pot too but I folded as it was early and I thought I was beaten. Looking back I think it still might have been best to fold to 2 re-raisers because it was early days but it felt weak at the time.Without knowing more about the players in the hand it's hard to give too much in the way of meaningful comment on the play but I would probably have played it the same way and folded to the re-raise. Some of it depends on stack sizes too; depending on where I stood and what I knew of the other players plus the size of the bets I could have gone all-in or I could have folded. That's poker though, so situational.


Other basic examples of stuff I fold is like a top pair with a mid kicker (and then see I would have won). I think I also get too scared of flushes and flush draws...Top pair with mid kicker is a weak hand and you are probably best getting away from it. Maybe your starting hands and the way you play them pre-flop are getting you into trickier situations than you should be in when the board is shown.

[counterfeit]

Yeh - J9 is a terrible hand to limp into a pot with. I know this might sound odd but it would be better to limp in with 45. J9 is only going to get you into trouble. At least with 45 you need to hit the flop vbang on in order to continue in the hand.

As for the play you mentioned, the best way to have avoided that was to go all in on the flop. You got scared when you hot the straight. Take the fear away by pushing and putting all the pressure on your opponents. As it happens, in the pot you were talking about it sounds like the A rag would have called on the flop and then you were going to have hit but at least you wouldn't have had any more decisions to make.

I would imagine too that the J9 would have folded to an all in on the flop meaning all the pot would have been yours.

I've said this before but profitable poker is about making the correct choice when faced with difficult or marginal decisions. Sometimes though, it's a lot easier to remove the decision and put it on somebody else.

[mathare]

I knew I had some decent links to STT strategy guides somewhere. Just been back through them and I think Adam Small's on Pocket 5s (tinyurl.com/adamstt)is probably the best of the lot as it's simple and effective