Tory plans.

[tovarich]

Tory Work and Pensions spokesman Theresa May said - "For too long Labour have let benefit cheats play the system" and don't we all know someone who hasn't done a days work in years and is milking the system.

Under tough Tory plans unveiled yesterday benefit cheats will be stripped of State Handouts for up to three years. Under a Conservative government a first offence would see benefit cheats banned for three months, a second offence for six months and a third offence for three years. In order to ensure that children do not suffer for their parents sins, some child benefits would still be paid.

Sounds good to me! :thumbs

OOPs, wrong button!

[scoobydoo]

For more right wing policies that will make our society better, visit http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html & unbiased reporting. :laugh

[tovarich]

For more right wing policies that will make our society better, visit http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html & unbiased reporting. :laugh

I think I detected a touch of sarcasm in your post Scooby so had a look at the website you recommended , can't say I saw anything "Right Wing" as you say.
They have reported that John Prescott, the working man's champion, who started as both a ship's steward as well as a shop steward is to become Lord Prescott, which I think is a ******* disgrace since he has done absolutely nothing for this country. Nothing biased in that,(if it's true) Scooby, because in the same piece they name two Tory M.P.'s who had to repay money in the expenses scandal, who might also be getting Lordships. So come back Scooby and let us all know to what you were referring in your comment about the Daily Mails "UNBIASED" reporting.

[Win2Win]

I'm voting Plaid Cymru .... get those :censored: English out of Wales :D :doh

[scoobydoo]

I think I detected a touch of sarcasm in your post Scooby so had a look at the website you recommended , can't say I saw anything "Right Wing" as you say.


You can't see that the Daily Mail is right wing...ok fair enough tov. As for being 'unbiased'...dear oh dear. :ermmm

[piggy]

c'mon tov the daily mail NOT right wing and biased it's like saying the popes not a catholic peado protector, if the mail staff could get a muslim homosexual illigal imigrant benefit cheat they would all shoot their loads.

[tovarich]

Oh dear, oh dear ,Scooby mate, I know the Daily Mail is a "right Wing" paper, in the same way the Guardian is a totally Left Wing paper, being Labour's mouthpiece. When I was 10 years old my father worked for the Daily Mail and I've been reading it for the last 62 years so I am well aware of its political views.

However, I still can't see any "BIAS" in my post so maybe you can help to show me.

Theresa May said that "for too long Labour have let benefit cheats play the system". Is this biased reporting by the Daily Mail? Seems like a statement of truth and of course we know the truth hurts. And is it "Biased" reporting when the Daily Mail tells of Tory plans to halt the benefitcheats and save the country millions of pounds. I would say it's a good idea and good news reporting by the Daily Mail. and even if Global Gordon implemented these changes it would be a good idea (But he won't) so am I being biased too? :)

[mathare]

Theresa May said that "for too long Labour have let benefit cheats play the system". Is this biased reporting by the Daily Mail? Seems like a statement of truth and of course we know the truth hurts.Just because it seems like truth doesn't make it so. It may be true that Theresa May said those words but are the words themselves true? Have Labour been letting people cheat the system? How does one define a benefit cheat? How does one define 'playing the system'? It can be argued that if the government have been letting this behaviour go on for any length of time at all then that is too long but it can also be argued that "too long" itself needs to be defined.

But maybe that's the academic scientist in me coming to the fore.


And is it "Biased" reporting when the Daily Mail tells of Tory plans to halt the benefitcheats and save the country millions of pounds. Potentially, yes. If all parties have similar plans but the newspaper focuses on only one party's plans then they are showing bias. That's not to say all parties do have this high up their priority lists of course. It's also bias if the newspaper reports on these Tory plans without actually double-checking the facts. Will the plans actually save millions or will the bureaucracy required to implement neatly offset any saving? In other words, are the paper just printing Tory propaganda? I haven't seen the articles nor the original documents from the Conservative party, I'm just saying.


I would say it's a good idea and good news reporting by the Daily Mail. and even if Global Gordon implemented these changes it would be a good idea (But he won't) so am I being biased too? :)By using a defamatory nickname and assuming other parties won't implement what you call a good idea, yes, you are being biased. But then you probably knew that.

[tovarich]

I wish I'd seen your post before I sent mine Piggy. It depends on your interpretation of the word "Bias". If you mean lying unduly and unfairly to distort the truth then both the Daily Mail and myself are not guilty, simples.

What Theresa May said, as reported by The Daily Mail, is an undeniable and incontestable truth. There are too many people milking the system and it is costing taxpayers like me, and possibly you Piggy, millions of pounds every year, money which could be better used elsewhere. I know three people (at least) who are fiddling the social benefit system and you probably know some as well:yikes:

[tophatter]

Instead of whingeing about benefit cheats and blaming the government for doing nothing about it why dont you help them and report these three people you "know" are committing benefit fraud. If you dont report people you know are commiting benefit fraud then how can you seriously moan about the government doing nothing? Maybe its easier just to moan about it as you want everyone beaten with the same stick?

And for the record I personally know no one who is commiting benefit fraud.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/BenefitFraud/DG_10014876

[tophatter]

They have reported that John Prescott, the working man's champion, who started as both a ship's steward as well as a shop steward .

What is wrong with that?:doh

[piggy]

the truth is TH is that this goverment, and believe me as a true socialist i don't blindly support them, has actually increased the detection of benefit fraud substancially but as with most things the more you want detected the more you have to invest in detection units. punative measures will never put people off fraud but only harm the most vunerable members of our society but as with most tory propaganda it's easy to say without proving anything and when you have rags like the daily mail to peddle your lies it's easy to con those that want to believe. as one of those parasites on society who lives off benefits i would like to say we are not all scroungers and cheats and if you could give me back good health i would be more than pleased to go back to work as i did before becoming to ill to work.

[mathare]

as one of those parasites on society who lives off benefits i would like to say we are not all scroungers and cheats and if you could give me back good health i would be more than pleased to go back to work as i did before becoming to ill to work.I'm with you 100% on this Piggy.

I am the only person I know on benefits (excluding pensioners and those families claiming whatever child benefits are available). I would rather not be on Employment and Support Allowance, I would much rather be continuing the career I was forced to put on hold last year due to ill health. It's no contest really. I had a fairly well-paid job and am now forced to struggle by on around £65 a week. I can't claim any other benefits as my missus has a well-paid job and over the years we have built up a decent amount of savings. How far does £65 a week go? Not very! I am basically living off the last dregs of my savings and the missus' goodwill. I would prefer to go back to work and earn several times that figure a week as I was up to last summer.

[tovarich]

It appears that Piggy and Mathare are looking for an argument where there isn't one! I never said nor did I imply that people who were unable to work through ill health should have their benefits cut. You both have my sympathy for not being able to work when I am sure you would want to but the point in question, which is the stated intention of Cameron, which is the report in the Daily Mail (which you both obviously hate) is to cut benefits for those who are FIDDLING, I.E. those claiming money they are not entitled to!!!!! Don't you think it's a good idea? I do! :ermmm

[scoobydoo]

...but the point in question, which is the stated intention of Cameron, which is the report in the Daily Mail (which you both obviously hate) is to cut benefits for those who are FIDDLING, I.E. those claiming money they are not entitled to!!!!! Don't you think it's a good idea? I do! :ermmm

I would say that you get punishment now if you are caught wouldn't you tov, I don't know what kind but I would like to think it would be quite severe, perhaps you know more than I do? It would worry me as what happens to the children of the fiddling parents in what the Tories have laid out, they would be the innocent victims here wouldn't they? Does that not concern you tov at all?

[piggy]

scooby they could allways bring back soup kitchens and the workhouse

[scoobydoo]

scooby they could allways bring back soup kitchens and the workhouse

yeah I forgot about them...oh OK let's go for it. :rolleyes:

[tovarich]

I would say that you get punishment now if you are caught wouldn't you tov, I don't know what kind but I would like to think it would be quite severe, perhaps you know more than I do? It would worry me as what happens to the children of the fiddling parents in what the Tories have laid out, they would be the innocent victims here wouldn't they? Does that not concern you tov at all?

I don't think you read my post, Scooby. Child benefits would still be paid!

Did you see the piece of film taken about a year ago of a man refereeing a football match. For about three or four years he had been claiming disability benefits becase he was unfit to work due to a bad back?

Did you see the piece of film of a man going round the streets cleaning peoples windows for financial gain? Again he was claiming disability benefits because he was unable to work but managed to carry a ladder and could climb a ladder no probs.

Both were taken to court and charged with stealing money from you and me!

These are the typee of cases in question and there are many more like that.

What do you guys think should be done? Should they all be ignored to carry on taking money from us under false pretences?

Come on lads, speak up, lets hear your opinions. A simple yes or no would do, without going into a Party Political Broadcast A La M.P.'s

[vegyjones]

I don't think you read my post, Scooby. Child benefits would still be paid! Do you know how much Child Benefit is? My wife has two kids and received about £120 ona four weekly basis. If a family have their Job Seekers taken away completely (we'll say a single parent family with 2 kids to be sparing) That's one adult and 2 children surviving on £120 for 4 weeks. It can't be done. I don't see how that can work.


Did you see the piece of film taken about a year ago of a man refereeing a football match. For about three or four years he had been claiming disability benefits becase he was unfit to work due to a bad back?

Did you see the piece of film of a man going round the streets cleaning peoples windows for financial gain? Again he was claiming disability benefits because he was unable to work but managed to carry a ladder and could climb a ladder no probs.

Both were taken to court and charged with stealing money from you and me!

These are the typee of cases in question and there are many more like that.s

So the current system is working then :doh

[tovarich]

Who was talking about Jobseekers allowance?
It's about people taking money under false pretences, PRETENDING to be unfit for work and depending on the state to pay them not to work and in many cases working on the side.
So that, Vegy, is the whole point. If you have been caught out and can't steal any more public money and child benefit is the only money coming into the house
THEN YOU GO AND GET A F*****G JOB you are not meant to pay bills or live off child benefit, although I dare say there are some who would try. To go back to the original statement in the Daily Mail, the Tories will, if they win the election, put a stop to people who are able to work from falsely claiming disability benefits and anybody who argues against that needs a shrink. That's as much as I care to say.

[mathare]

To go back to the original statement in the Daily Mail, the Tories will, if they win the election, put a stop to people who are able to work from falsely claiming disability benefits and anybody who argues against that needs a shrink. That's as much as I care to say.They claim that's what they will do but election promises, including those in a manifesto, are non-binding so forgive me if I reserve judgement on this one. IF the Tories form the new government I will wait and see what happens on this issue.

As Vegy says though, the system seems to be working. People will cheat any system that is put in place so you have to accept some level of loss through such behaviour. It's up to the general public to report any incidents of cheating as they suspect them though. I hope you're doing your civil duty Tov and reporting the cheats you claim to know.

[tophatter]

Have you got round to reporting those three people you "know" are fiddling the benefits system yet Tov?

You seem awful het up about benefit cheats and it might make you feel better to actually do something about it.

[tophatter]

the truth is TH is that this goverment, and believe me as a true socialist i don't blindly support them, has actually increased the detection of benefit fraud substancially but as with most things the more you want detected the more you have to invest in detection units. punative measures will never put people off fraud but only harm the most vunerable members of our society but as with most tory propaganda it's easy to say without proving anything and when you have rags like the daily mail to peddle your lies it's easy to con those that want to believe. as one of those parasites on society who lives off benefits i would like to say we are not all scroungers and cheats and if you could give me back good health i would be more than pleased to go back to work as i did before becoming to ill to work.


Could not agree with you more Piggy. Of course there are a small minority of benefit cheats but then there are also people who earn huge amounts of money and fiddle tax. That never seems to get them frothing at the mouth though.

[scoobydoo]

Could not agree with you more Piggy. Of course there are a small minority of benefit cheats but then there are also people who earn huge amounts of money and fiddle tax. That never seems to get them frothing at the mouth though.

You'll never see Daily Mail front page of that, it is just playing the system I guess. & for the record, I too believe you should report these people tov if they are doing what you have said, it's out of order. Better still report them when Dave gets in! :wink

Lovely line in Outnumbered last week on a visit to Westminster, London with the family. The little girl asks "How do they decide which laws to make?" The father says, "Well, they read the Daily Mail, and do what it says". Bit too close to the truth eh. :ooo

[tovarich]

They claim that's what they will do but election promises, including those in a manifesto, are non-binding so forgive me if I reserve judgement on this one. IF the Tories form the new government I will wait and see what happens on this issue.

As Vegy says though, the system seems to be working. People will cheat any system that is put in place so you have to accept some level of loss through such behaviour. It's up to the general public to report any incidents of cheating as they suspect them though. I hope you're doing your civil duty Tov and reporting the cheats you claim to know.

You are still trying to find an argument, Mat, aren't you. You are willing to "reserve Judgement" on Tory claims of what they will do, and with the Labour manifesto out today are you willing to "reserve judgement" on Brown as well. And are you willing to wait another five years before you come to a decision one way or another.

In your previous post you didn't sound too happy in only getting £65 a week sick pay. Maybe, if Cameron gets elected, and he brings in the necessary legislation you just might get £100 a week sick pay or maybe even £165 a week. Is it worth thinking about maybe? So far, after thirteen years in government Labour have managed to give you £65. Well done, Global.:happyboun

[tovarich]

Three Labour M.P.s have been taken to court and charged with stealing money from you and me by way of expenses. Now they want you and me to pay their court costs. Yes, the world has gone mad and the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Not to worry though, Just seen Cameron on TV saying he will bring in new laws to prevent this kind of thing happening. If only Global would do the same, after all he does lead the country and he does set the standards we have to live by!!!

[tophatter]

Whats the worry? If they are found guilty of stealing money from you and me then I believe they will have to repay the legal aid?

Now, how are those three benefit cheats you speak of? You reported them yet? Come on Tov, its not all about government we have to take responsibilty ourselves and if you dont report them then you are in effect enabling them to continue their fraud.

[tovarich]

How do you feel about having to give more than £600 million every year to Greece. Maybe if we weren't part of Europe then people like Piggy and Mathare would get more than £65 a week sick pay, no? Considering we are not in the Eurozone and we get nothing out of Europe, except more unnecessary laws and unlimited immigrants would we be better off without them? Would you like a referendum? I'm sure you all have an opinion.

[tophatter]

My opinion is referendums are an awful idea.

Im not overly bothered about Europe and Greece. Im too busy fretting about those three benefit cheats you are turning a blind eye to. Please tell me you have reported them.

[vegyjones]

Not to worry though, Just seen Cameron on TV saying he will bring in new laws to prevent this kind of thing happening.
All when and good after the horse has bolted. He's not sating anything the other parties haven't. Jack Straw has already revised the legal aid system and these three 'former' MP's appiled before the means testing rules came into effect.

[tovarich]

All when and good after the horse has bolted. He's not sating anything the other parties haven't. Jack Straw has already revised the legal aid system and these three 'former' MP's appiled before the means testing rules came into effect.

Well, if Jack Straw has sorted it out then that's ok. :)

[tophatter]

Shame Cameron did not fight to bring in reform of the expense system before claiming the maximum he could for his second home for about five years in a row.

If I was as anti-labour as you Tov I would be seething at Cameron and not be lapping up all his stunts. Any decent opposition fighting an election against a governement going for a fourth term against a backdrop of a recession would be 15 -20 points ahead before the campaign had even started.

[vegyjones]

Well, if Jack Straw has sorted it out then that's ok. :)

Glad I made you see sense at last :D

[tovarich]

How could we manage without you Vegy. I think you're a shining light.:D

[mathare]

You are still trying to find an argument, Mat, aren't you. Honestly? No. I'm just trying to bring you down from your big blue high horse and balance the views somewhat.


You are willing to "reserve Judgement" on Tory claims of what they will do, and with the Labour manifesto out today are you willing to "reserve judgement" on Brown as well. And are you willing to wait another five years before you come to a decision one way or another.I am willing to reserve judgement on Brown, yes. If that means waiting another five years then so be it. Truth be told Tov, apart from the illness keeping me out of work, my life has been getting better year on year for the past 10 years or so. I have very little to complain about and would rather not rock the boat and risk jeopardising the good life I have now. But at the end of the day I don't care a jot for politics and politicians. Most of the headline-grabbing policies don't affect me so I don't really give a toss.


In your previous post you didn't sound too happy in only getting £65 a week sick pay. Maybe, if Cameron gets elected, and he brings in the necessary legislation you just might get £100 a week sick pay or maybe even £165 a week. Is it worth thinking about maybe? So far, after thirteen years in government Labour have managed to give you £65. Well done, Global.:happybounWhat an utterly pathetic argument! How many "maybes" and "mights" do you want to use? Perhaps if Nick Clegg was Prime Minister I'd be getting a grand a week sick pay and a go on his wife every Tuesday night. Let's be realistic here Tov, however much you love Davey C and his party he's not going to double or treble Employment Support Allowance benefits is he? So I'm not going to vote for him on the off chance he does. Were I to vote (which I won't be doing) I'd at least vote for policies I thought had a realistic chance of seeing the late of day not empty election promises.

Ultimately though I won't be voting for several reasons, including the fact that none of the main parties really appeal to me. The Tories are a bunch of posh boys (our local candidate is Zac Goldsmith!) who I just cannot relate to. Labour don't get a look in round here and aren't even canvassing and due to my beliefs and objections to the current electoral system (which are well documented on this forum) I won't vote for their candidate. The Lib Dems are the best of neither world, or is it the worst of both? They are very much the third party and from the very small interest I have in politics I couldn't really tell you anything much about them. If they can't grab my attention how do they expect to gain my vote?

On top of all of that, as I said my life has improved year on year which may or may not be related to the governing party. I don't feel in a position to judge the real (nor perceived) influence the current government has had on my affairs so I don't feel strongly either way when it comes to supporting or opposing them. If only life were more like science and I could run my last 10 years again with a Tory government and again with the Lib Dems in charge then I would be in a better position to make a decision on who I would like running the country.

[barrelmaniac]

There is only 1 way that can get this country back on track, and that is to help build businesses in the private sector, thats where the county's wealth is generated, It will really pain me to do so but I will have to vote conservative this time, the good times have been wasted by bigger and bigger public spending, wastage and the lack of control of borders etc. Europe is having more and more power on our lives which wont change even if the conservatives get in power.

And I believe that the big increase in any standard of living many have experienced has been achieved by living beyond the country's means. Which we are all going to pay for especially those of us that are taxpayers.

[tovarich]

There is only 1 way that can get this country back on track, and that is to help build businesses in the private sector, thats where the county's wealth is generated, It will really pain me to do so but I will have to vote conservative this time, the good times have been wasted by bigger and bigger public spending, wastage and the lack of control of borders etc. Europe is having more and more power on our lives which wont change even if the conservatives get in power.

And I believe that the big increase in any standard of living many have experienced has been achieved by living beyond the country's means. Which we are all going to pay for especially those of us that are taxpayers.

Well done, Barrelmaniac. You have a far better way with words than I but our thoughts are similar and a couple of weeks ago I said much the same regarding the public being overtaxed leaving us with less spending money which is why shops are closing down because people are buying less, which leads to manufacturing industries closing down because they have less outlets for their goods which is leading to more unemployment. Its a downward spiral and Global Gordon's only answer seems to be a 1% increase on National Insurance (tax). If he really thinks that is the answer he should increase National Insurance (tax) by a minimum of 5%. I hope he doesn't read this, he'll think "what a great idea". :D

As I've said before, I haven't voted Tory since 198- something or other but feel I'll have to this time to try and get these incompetents out and give someone else a go. I believe that things can only get better, but not with this lot in charge which may be why so many Labour M.P.s are not standing again. Maybe some of them aren't so stupid after all.

[tovarich]

Honestly? No. I'm just trying to bring you down from your big blue high horse and balance the views somewhat.

I am willing to reserve judgement on Brown, yes. If that means waiting another five years then so be it. Truth be told Tov, apart from the illness keeping me out of work, my life has been getting better year on year for the past 10 years or so. I have very little to complain about and would rather not rock the boat and risk jeopardising the good life I have now. But at the end of the day I don't care a jot for politics and politicians. Most of the headline-grabbing policies don't affect me so I don't really give a toss.

What an utterly pathetic argument! How many "maybes" and "mights" do you want to use? Perhaps if Nick Clegg was Prime Minister I'd be getting a grand a week sick pay and a go on his wife every Tuesday night. Let's be realistic here Tov, however much you love Davey C and his party he's not going to double or treble Employment Support Allowance benefits is he? So I'm not going to vote for him on the off chance he does. Were I to vote (which I won't be doing) I'd at least vote for policies I thought had a realistic chance of seeing the late of day not empty election promises.

Ultimately though I won't be voting for several reasons, including the fact that none of the main parties really appeal to me. The Tories are a bunch of posh boys (our local candidate is Zac Goldsmith!) who I just cannot relate to. Labour don't get a look in round here and aren't even canvassing and due to my beliefs and objections to the current electoral system (which are well documented on this forum) I won't vote for their candidate. The Lib Dems are the best of neither world, or is it the worst of both? They are very much the third party and from the very small interest I have in politics I couldn't really tell you anything much about them. If they can't grab my attention how do they expect to gain my vote?

On top of all of that, as I said my life has improved year on year which may or may not be related to the governing party. I don't feel in a position to judge the real (nor perceived) influence the current government has had on my affairs so I don't feel strongly either way when it comes to supporting or opposing them. If only life were more like science and I could run my last 10 years again with a Tory government and again with the Lib Dems in charge then I would be in a better position to make a decision on who I would like running the country.

Mat, you are looking for arguments,and you're just being pedantic and trying to shoot me down no matter what I say or what point I am trying to make. You are obviously a strong believer in hair splitting and being pedantic.

When I gave figures like £100 or £165 I didn't mean £100 or £165 I simply meant more than you are getting now, and you know that very well. Anyway £65 a week is a disgrace and an insult to anyone to expect them to live on that, I can't believe anyone would be happy with that no matter how much they have in the bank or how much their wife earns and if that is the best this lot can do after 13 years in government then it must be time for you to help to rid of them (although it's not for me to tell anyone HOW to vote - all I would say is everone who is entitled to vote should use their vote and if anyone decides not to vote then that is a vote for the incumbent - after all many good men died to give you the right to vote.)

As for the "BLUE HIGH HORSE" you still think I am a Tory don't you, well I'm not, nor am I pro-Cameron, I'm just anti this lying, incompetent, wasteful government and ,like Barrelmaniac, I feel I am being forced to vote Tory.

[mathare]

all I would say is everone who is entitled to vote should use their vote and if anyone decides not to vote then that is a vote for the incumbent - after all many good men died to give you the right to vote.Unless the electoral process in your constituency differs from mine, my decision to not vote is just that - no vote at all. It's not a vote for anyone. Many good men, and some rubbish ones as well, died to give us all the right to vote. Doesn't mean we have to use it though. It wouldn't be right to waste something as precious as a vote and if I don't know who I would like as my MP I shouldn't vote.