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Godspot
20th September 2011, 02:56
While I just seen:

Moore set to rejoin Workforce in task of completing Arc double

... is winning his race to be able to ride Workforce in the colt's defence of his Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe trophy in Paris on Sunday week. ...
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/racing/moore-set-to-rejoin-workforce-in-task-of-completing-arc-double-2357533.html

I see Nick Mordin has updated with his take on the recent trials at Longchamp:

THE JAPANESE HAVE ANOTHER SERIOUS CHANCE IN ARC

Below you can see the sectional times for the three Arc Trials run last Sunday together with those for last year's Arc. I’ve adjusted those for Galikova's Prix Vermeille and the Arc to take account of the slower surface they were run on:

Sarafina Reliable Man Galikova 2010 Arc

1000 1m34.07 1m 34.47 1m 32.54 1m 28.00

600 1m 58.76 1m 58.11 1m 57.14 1m 53.08

400 2m 10.35 2m 09.54 2m 09.02 2m 05.26

200 2m 21,17 2m 20.63 2m 20.59 Not available

Finish 2m 32.28 2m 32.43 2m 32.68 2m 31.54

As you can see all three Arc trials featured a much slower early pace to the 1000 metre (5f) from home mark than in last year's Arc.

SARAFINA (40/120) clocked a slightly faster time than the winners of the other two Arc trials when taking the Prix Foy. And she produced much the fastest finish, wriggling through a very narrow gap to score in a final furlong officially run in just 11.11 seconds.

Sarafina can produce an astonishing burst of finishing speed in a slow run race when the field is small enough to allow her an uninterrupted passage. In fact I could hardly believe how fast she finished when taking a very slow run five runner Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud on her previous start. She actually ran the last quarter mile in just 21 seconds flat in that contest. That's the fastest final quarter mile I've ever heard of.

The big problem with Sarafina's ultra-late running style is that in big fields she tends to encounter traffic problems. She broke her maiden in a big field but since then she's lost both times and encountered traffic when she's contested races with more than nine runners. In single figure fields she's won six out of seven.

In last year's Arc Sarafina was forced to check early and then nearly got brought down rounding the home turn. She clearly had major problems coping with the big field. I can't see why it should be any different this time around seeing that she had trouble finding a run against just three rivals in the Prix Foy. How on earth the bookies can justify making her ante-post favourite for the Arc is beyond me.

Runner up HIRUNO D'AMOUR (40/120) looks a better candidate for the Arc than the winner. He took the brave route down the inside when winning one of Japan's top races, the Tenno Sho, against seventeen rivals off a searching early pace on his previous start back in May.

This strong, good looking Japanese colt put up a great performance to run Sarafina to a photo seeing that he was clearly unfit and the winner bumped him from behind on the home turn, costing him ground.

Hiruno d'Amour has lost all four times he's come into a race off a break of seven weeks or more as he did here. And, like a lot of horses that need the run, he appeared sluggish before the race. Trainer Mitsugu Kon commented on this, saying "He was so quiet in the parade ring and the preliminaries that I wished he'd show a little more spark."

Jockey Shinji Fujita seemed to be under instructions not to use his whip as he only pushed Hiruno d'Amour out with hands and heels in the closing stages. Nonetheless this was enough for him to surge forward up the straight, gain two lengths to take a narrow lead and then hang on for second by what would be called a head in Britain or Ireland.

Kon told the JRA after the race that he viewed Sarafina's push up the rail as a sign she had no extra to spare. "The winner is the likely favourite for the Arc, but to have had to go up the inside like she did, I'd say she was having a rough time of it. I think we can expect to turn the tables next time out. Hiruno d'Amour still has room for improvement and is not in tiptop shape yet. I'm going to get him there now as we aim for the big race."

Hiruno d'Amour gives Japan another serious chance of winning the Arc. But this year he's not their only chance. Last year's runner up NAKAYAMA FESTA (38/114) has another shot at the race after having a warm up off a lengthy break in the Prix Foy.

Nakayama Festa's jockey let him bowl along in the lead at a strong pace for the first furlong or so to open up a five length break. He then slowed it up from the front before starting the sprint for home entering the straight. The horse was still level with a furlong to run but looked to blow up through lack of fitness, only being ridden hands and heels from there to get beat three and a quarter lengths.

Nakayama Festa has a record of going well fresh but had been off for ages before this run, as his trainer noted. He said "It was his first time running since the Japan Cup last year and you could not say he was in great shape. But, now that we've had a good run, I think he will improve for the next race. He took the lead and he was running balanced throughout. Only at the end did he run out of steam, but I think he'll have more for next time."

This run definitely improved Nakayama Festa's chances of winning the Arc. I'm a little concerned that he will peak one run after the Arc and that his connections have the Japan Cup at the back of their minds rather than the Arc. But he still has to rank as one of the major players.

Third placed ST NICHOLAS ABBEY (38/114) ranged alongside Nakayama Festa when the sprint began but was soon outpaced by the first two. It's looking more and more like he wants to go back up to the kind of marathon trip that saw him win so impressively at Chester early this season. The Prix Royal Oak would be his obvious target.

RELIABLE MAN LOOKS A BIT DODGY FOR THE ARC

RELIABLE MAN (39/117) looked impressive when winning the Prix Niel by a couple of lengths from the Grand Prix de Paris winner Meandre. But I’m still not convinced he's truly top class. He earned the same rather ordinary speed rating from me the he had on his previous two starts despite having a better chance of clocking a good final time than the winners of the other two Arc trials.

They picked up much more strongly off the slow early pace in the Prix Niel from the five furlong marker than they did in the Foy or Vermeille, covering the half mile from there to the furlong pole almost a second faster than in the Foy and nearly two seconds quicker than the Vermeille. In addition Reliable Man was pushed out by his rider all the way through the final furlong. If he was really top class I'd have expected him to clock a significantly faster final time.

It's hard to knock Reliable Man on form as he's only lost once in four starts and looked impressive here. But until he runs faster I'm going to oppose him in Group 1 company.

GALIKOVA STILL LOOKS THE MOST LIKELY ARC WINNER

I've been whittering on about GALIKOVA (38/114) as an Arc prospect ever since she won the Prix Cleopatre in sensational time back in May - where she clocked a faster time than the subsequent Derby winner Pour Moi managed on the same card in a truly run race. Following her win in the Prix Vermeille I still see her as the one they all have to beat.

Galikova is clearly best off a strong early pace. But she showed in the Vermeille as she had on her previous start that she can still dominate inferior rivals even when there's a sprint finish. She picked up really well to surge nearly three lengths clear without being hard pressed.

Galikova was in season when second in the Prix de Diane (French Oaks) and has won all her other four starts this season. I've compared her to Zarkava before. More people will be doing that if she pulls off the Vermeille-Arc double as that one did.

http://www.nickmordin.com/france.htm

[My figures for the 3 -

128 - 138 - 114 respectively. Mordin doesn't take into account weight for age which puts Reliable Man ahead even while a slightly slower time.]

He also put some interesting stats in last week’s Weekender too:

11 of last 12 winners had won a Group One of the present season by at least two lengths – Only Galikova, Nathaniel, Danedream & So You Think have done that.

14 of the last 17 Arcs have been won by 3yo’s – two of the three older horses had already won two Group One’s that season.

12 of the last 13 3yo’s to win had won at least 2/3rd’s of all previous starts, only Galikova & Reliable Man have done that & concludes that Galikova is the one to be on.

Regards So You Think’s chances: Horses bred in New Zealand have raced in 62 pattern class races outside NZ or Australia at 12f+ & have won only once. He’s a big, heavy horse & apparently, the heavier horses are, the shorter the average distance they’re effective at. He’s so big he says, he’s hard to steer & gives that as a reason as to why he’s lost both times he’s encountered big fields, like the one he’ll face in the Arc.

A narrow success but a terrific performance from ante-post Arc favourite SARAFINA who gained a narrow verdict over Japanese challenger Hiruno D'Amour. Alain de Royer-Dupre had warned that his star filly would be short of her best as she was prepared for next month's showpiece but she showed terrific heart to put her head in front. Held-up in rear off an initially strong pace, she was still in last spot with a furlong to run and Christophe Lemaire opted to try and challenge between horses rather than switch to the outside. She showed her trademark turn of foot and had to be brave to force her way past Hiruno d'Amour where there was barely a gap for her to go through but did so and appeared to win a shade cosily. Her style of running will ensure that she will always be a hostage of fortune and she enjoyed little luck in the Arc 12 months ago but there's no doubting that she has the ability to run a huge race if the cards fall right. Recent history doesn't offer much encouragement with the last nine winners of this race going on to be beaten in the Arc although three defeated horses have gone on to victory. Hiruno D'Amour attracted support prior to the race and the Japanese challenger ran a big race on his first start since winning a Grade One over two miles in May. That success in the prestigious Tenno Sho (spring) was the biggest of his career to date and his fourth victory in 14 starts with his first graded win coming on his previous outing. He's clearly progressive and this outing should have brought him on for next month's challenge.
http://horses.sportinglife.com/Arch_Race/0,12658,459102,00.html

RELIABLE MAN completed a double for Alain de Royer-Dupre with a convincing success from favourite Meandre in the premier trial for the Arc with 12 horses having gone on to complete the double. Gerald Mosse had blamed himself for the Prix du Jockey Club winner's defeat at the hands of Meandre in the Grand Prix de Paris, believing that he had his colt too far back from the pace. He adopted a more prominent position on this occasion and the response was instantaneous as he quickened clear to record an impressive success to land his fourth race from just five starts. This was his first victory over a mile and a half, he got the trip well and it should be all systems go for the Arc for which his price was, predictably, slashed as he attempts to be the first horse to complete the Niel/Arc double since Rail Link in 2006; connections expect him to come on for this race.
http://horses.sportinglife.com/Arch_Race/0,12658,459103,00.html

The winning time was around two seconds slower than the two preceding trials despite the pace appearing to be good and even but conditions had worsened appreciably following heavy rain. GALIKOVA, a Galileo half-sister to Goldikova, was having her first run over a mile and a half and emphatically proved her stamina for the trip with a commanding victory. She raced in fourth, tracking Wonder Of Wonders, and off the rail ensuring that she was going to have plenty of room in which to make her challenge. She only needed a couple of taps from Olivier Peslier to quicken up impressively and Peslier only had to push her out to score. The jockey felt that she had improved since winning at Deauville and she is firmly on course for the Arc; Zarkava was the last - and fifth in total - to complete the Vermeille/Arc double and bookmakers were suitably impressed to slash her odds in what is shaping up to be an open year.
http://horses.sportinglife.com/Arch_Race/0,12658,459106,00.html

Godspot
30th September 2011, 09:44
I've had to have a go at Reliable Man EW with BlueSquare, 16/s seems too big for my top rated [888Sport are the same.]

Apparently now though, we'd be better off with a single figure draw like 16 of the last 18 winners.

http://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing-betting/ante-post-racing/flat/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe

Godspot
30th September 2011, 10:15
The draw just been announced & it doesn't augur well for Sarafina, one of the favs, stall 13

Workforce 8, same as last year, Reliable Man 7, that'll do nicely!

Godspot
30th September 2011, 10:44
I've had to have a go at Reliable Man EW with BlueSquare, 16/s seems too big for my top rated [888Sport are the same.]

Apparently now though, we'd be better off with a single figure draw like 16 of the last 18 winners.

http://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing-betting/ante-post-racing/flat/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe

Both those firms 10/s now, best now 14/s StanJames

biyax
30th September 2011, 21:10
In the last ten runnings of the ARC, SPLIT SECOND speed figures have been an excellent guide. Dave Bellingham (The King Of The Sand - AW) compiles Split Second speed ratings and has created a list of 'Pars' which are the benchmark figures a horse needs to achieve to be competitive at a certain level racing. For Group 1 races, that benchmark figure is 117. This year there was just one qualifier, Pour Moi. Apart from him, the best figure posted by three year-old this season is the 115 by RELIABLE MAN when he won the PRIX DU JOCKEY CLUB over 1m 2f 110yds in June. Nine of the last ten ARC winners had all posted a SPLIT SECOND speed figure of 114 or higher in the same season of the ARC, so it is a fairly reliable eliminator.

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 01:41
Nice one for that Biyax -

Oh, this is going to be interesting but I was just looking up there & didn't see where I remembered Reliable Man's trainer blaming the dry ground for his sole defeat, so looked up & found:

Reliable Man's trainer Alain de Royer-Dupre, who has had three placed ... blamed the firmer-than-advertised ground for Reliable Man's defeat at ...

http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/horseracing-tips/ante-post/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe-betting-300811.html

the hands or feet of Meandre

but anyway, I just checked my Going Allowances for that race on my spreadsheet, I used an 85 when good is 145, so it was obviously fast -

When Reliable Man turned the tables last time it was 154 -

When Workforce won last year when described as very soft I got 167 -

Saturday's racing at Longchamp I had 150.5 suggesting as I Tweeted in response to a request from trainer Ed Dunlop, slightly softer than good.

Anyway, that link above gives Timeform's ratings:

Timeform ratings for the Arc (weight adjusted)

143 So You Think
142 Workforce
141 Nakayama Festa
138 Sarafina
137p Sea Moon
136 Nathaniel
135 St Nicholas Abbey
132 Meandre
131 Golden Lilac
130 Galikova
129 Reliable Man
124+ Baraan

Let's see how we (http://horseracingx.posterous.com/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe-2011-some-stats-figs) fare?

Win2Win
2nd October 2011, 09:25
I still get a big buzz out of the Arc, even if I don't bet, which this year looks likely. Everyone should visit the race at least once in a lifetime, decent priced packages are always available..... Paris itself is a :ass2'ole though :laugh .... but the reacecourse is excellent. :thumbs

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 10:24
I still get a big buzz out of the Arc, even if I don't bet, which this year looks likely. Everyone should visit the race at least once in a lifetime, decent priced packages are always available..... Paris itself is a :ass2'ole though :laugh .... but the reacecourse is excellent. :thumbs

I been buzzing since I got 16/s about Reliable Man before the draw was announced -

not back along Nick Mordin was saying Silver Pond should be favourite, he's around 100/1!

The course may be excellent, shame about the descriptions on the internet - is this really the best course info pic out-there?

http://www.lescourseshippiques.com/cache/images/hippodrome/113/260_/carte-longchamp.jpg

My Top Rated's for card:

Ley Hunter +17 - like

Masamah +2? - ground gone against, Prohibit & Margot Did look solid enough & fancy a good run from 2yo Requinto but

Fire Lily +7? - wrong trip? like fav

Dabirism +12 - good luck to Frankie for 500th international race win!

Goldikova +8 - like Frankie's mount Worthadd, 3rd in the betting @ 9/s for a place?

Reliable Man +3

Announce jt b CD? 4 joint tops odds for a dead-heat?

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 11:26
New friend Ben from Narrow The Field just put out something I been looking into, that of the Dosage Index & gives some interesting stats that lead to a few possible Lays:

Dosage Green Zone (probable winners based on Dosage)

Horse DP DPA TOT DI CD RS
HIRUNO D’AMOUR 4-0-8-2-0 / 14 1.33 0.43 CP
GALIKOVA 10-1-17-4-2 DQ 34 1.34 0.38 CP/HU
WORKFORCE 7-1-14-8-0 20+ 30 1.00 0.23 CP/HU
SHARETA 5-3-7-6-1 DQ 22 1.10 0.23 FR
SNOW FAIRY 1-2-10-1-0 / 14 1.33 0.21 HU
TESTOSTERONE 3-2-11-4-0 20+ 20 1.11 0.20 CP/FR
NAKAYAMA FESTA 2-1-12-0-1 / 16 1.29 0.19 CP
ST NICHOLAS ABBEY 3-1-10-4-0 / 18 1.00 0.17 CP/HU
TREASURE BEACH 3-1-9-4-1 PATB 18 0.89 0.06 CP
RELIABLE MAN 3-2-10-5-2 DQ 22 0.83 -0.05 HU

Dosage Orange Zone (possible winners based on Dosage)

Horse DP DPA TOT DI CD RS
SILVER POND 5-0-16-8-1 20+ 30 0.76 0.00 CP
DANEDREAM 2-2-17-2-5 DQ 28 0.81 -0.21 HU/CP

Dosage Red Zone (unlikely winners based on Dosage)

Horse DP DPA TOT DI CD RS
MEANDRE 1-0-2-1-2 / 6 0.50 -0.50 HU/CP
MASKED MARVEL 2-0-9-4-1 / 16 0.68 -0.13 CP/HU
SO YOU THINK 3-0-10-8-1 20+ 22 0.57 -0.18 CP
SARAFINA 3-0-12-7-2 20+ 24 0.60 -0.21 HU
Quite a few runners sit snugly in the Green Zone, however, the red zone contains some very interesting runners indeed. Using Dosage as our gauge these 4 would be winning out of turn or at least going against the Dosage trends of the past 15 seasons.

http://www.narrowing-the-field.co.uk/317/317/

Some short prices in the red & Silver Pond a possible?

biyax
2nd October 2011, 11:30
SportingLife
Betting Forecast: 7/2 Sarafina, 4/1 So You Think, 6/1 Workforce, 6/1 Galikova

RACINGPOST
BETTING FORECAST: 4/1 Sarafina, 5/1 So You Think, 7/1 Galikova, 8/1 Workforce

First four is very important in any betting forecast.

biyax
2nd October 2011, 11:47
THIS SEASON'S FORM ONLY

So You Think 117 IRISH CHAMPION
Snow Fairy 116 IRISH CHAMPION
Reliable Man 115 PRIX DU JOCKEY CLUB
Workforce 114 BRIGADIER GERARD
Sarafina 113 PRIX FOY
Galikova 112 PRIX VERMEILLE
Hirino D'amour 112 PRIX FOY
Meandre 111 PRIX NIEL
Nathaniel 110 KING EDWARD VII
Nakayama Festa 110 PRIX FOY

***Rail Link in 2006 is the only ARC winner to have figure below 114 in last 10 years.

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 13:54
Just heard Dabirism is 11 points clear with a p on Timeform ratings - makes my 12 seem appreciable:smile:

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 13:57
Just heard Dabirism is 11 points clear with a p on Timeform ratings - makes my 12 seem appreciable:smile:

15l's last 2 furlongs out! Well done Frankie, 500 International winners!

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 16:17
I still get a big buzz out of the Arc, even if I don't bet, which this year looks likely.

& quite wise too! Far too competitive!

Amazing! Race time record if not course by a filly that cost 9k!!

Bit of a learning curve for me - think I overdid my figs for the trial meet - glad I just added Cologne to my spreadsheet but meanwhile my top rated's are 50% among the bread & butter races back in blighty!
:rolleyes::doh1:

Winner gets a 132p from Timeform - up from 125, well done to them! & Graham Cunningham who tipped her up on Timeform Radio a couple of months back!

Godspot
2nd October 2011, 16:55
Announce jt b CD? 4 joint tops odds for a dead-heat?

Timeform Radio - 'as close to a dead-heat we're likely to see' but well done Frankie again! Oh & sorry, that should have been 500 Group Race winners above, 501 now!

biyax
2nd October 2011, 18:41
SportingLife

Analysis: A surprise result to an Arc that was run in course record time in which the draw once again proved significant. However, take nothing away from the German trained filly DANEDREAM who beat a high-class field in terrific fashion to justify the faith that connections had shown in her in supplementing on Thursday. The Lomitas filly dispelled any doubts about her form in Germany in authoritative fashion, making some top-class rivals look positively leaden-footed; always well placed, she put the race to bed in a matter of strides to provide her trainer with the biggest victory of a long and successful career. She is versatile with regard to underfoot conditions and may be given the chance to further enhance her reputation at the Breeders' Cup and will reportedly stay in training next year where a globetrotting campaign may well be in the offing as it's surely worth the experiment in dropping her back to ten furlongs given the way she travelled and quickened. Shareta was in the line-up as a pacemaker for stablemate Sarafina and did her job effectively to gain some more valuable black type having finished third in the Prix Vermeille. Snow Fairy has gradually recaptured her best form this season and ran another admirable race, doing best of those held-up. She was being ridden to hold a position turning into the straight as the pace quickened and she tracked the winner through but was never travelling with the same ease.

Win2Win
2nd October 2011, 19:31
Well a filly winning has really :ass2 up the breeders :laugh

biyax
2nd October 2011, 21:26
I was on winner; but i never declare my tote (pool) based bet. So, my bet was PARI-MATUEL today.

Godspot
3rd October 2011, 14:27
Reliable Man's trainer Alain de Royer-Dupre, who has had three placed ... blamed the firmer-than-advertised ground for Reliable Man's defeat at ...

http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/horseracing-tips/ante-post/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe-betting-300811.html

the hands or feet of Meandre

but anyway, I just checked my Going Allowances for that race on my spreadsheet, I used an 85 when good is 145, so it was obviously fast -

When Reliable Man turned the tables last time it was 154 -

When Workforce won last year when described as very soft I got 167 -

Saturday's racing at Longchamp I had 150.5 suggesting as I Tweeted in response to a request from trainer Ed Dunlop, slightly softer than good.



In conclusion:

[French racing & going descriptions can be very deceptive.]

Within 24hours we're back to somewhere between 49-99 [has to be lower than 99, otherwise I'm looking at rating her/Danedream 145 :yikes:]

Maybe Saturday's races were all slow run typically French farcical affairs [rather like the trials meet which some of the analysis above suggests] & or, any watering had seriously worn off by Sunday & the ground was back to the unsuitable fast ground for Reliable Man - ah! Maybe I should use Meandre's previous fast ground performance to rate the race around? Either way, I think she is slightly better than the 132p Timeform (http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/events/handicappers-corner-danedream-deserves-all-the-arc-plau-031011.html) have awarded her.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9K3oqp7FE&feature=share

Godspot
25th October 2011, 11:09
& according to Mords - fast ground enhances the chances of a low draw bias:

In regards to the draw I should say that it appears to be of overwhelming significance in the Arc when the ground isn't slow enough to create decent gaps between the runners, allowing more room for a horse to manouver.

In fact the last 13 times the ground has been fast enough to produce a time quicker than 2m 30 seconds the winner has been drawn 7 or lower. The 120 horses drawn wider have all lost. At some point before next year I hope to have the chance to visit a racing library to check the Arc draw stats from earlier years. My bet is I'll still find a huge bias towards the inside seven post positions on fast ground.

The other stat that got confirmed by this year's result is the trend towards wide margin Group 1 winners. Danedream's success means that twelve of the last thirteen Arc winners had previously won a Group 1 that season by at least two lengths. Galikova and So You Think were the only other horses to have done that prior to this year's Arc.
http://www.nickmordin.com/france.htm

Win2Win
26th October 2011, 09:08
I thought you were posting next years tip when I seen this update :laugh